Should Openly Gay People Be Allowed To Serve In The Military?

[Semper Catholic]

[quote name='ThePenciledOne' date='06 August 2010 - 08:58 PM' timestamp='1281146319' post='2153517']
Nope, though you do have a point.

I never asked for anyone to 'protect' my freedoms, and if they are willing to fine by me, though with all honesty it doesn't matter to me. Concerning my religion is an entirely different matter, and you comparing government (strictly something that is founded on earth) and the Church (an institution that Divinely established, and it shall continue longer than the United States will), find that you are comparing apples to oranges.

Not only that most priests that I know have a lot better dispositions than the soldiers I have met.

But then we digress off topic.
[/quote]

>Looks at profile
>Filled with quotes hipster nonconformist pseudo intellectuals
>ah geez not this again.jpeg

[ThePenciledOne]

[quote name='Semper Catholic' date='06 August 2010 - 11:19 PM' timestamp='1281147551' post='2153524']
>Looks at profile
>Filled with quotes hipster nonconformist pseudo intellectuals
>ah geez not this again.jpeg
[/quote]

Talk about ad hominem....maybe

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Semper Catholic' date='06 August 2010 - 07:00 PM' timestamp='1281139233' post='2153483']
Post by Sternhauser detected, Post disregarded.
[/quote]

Probably the safest route.

~Sternhauser

[Nihil Obstat]

These threads get hardcore interesting when you challenge the basic assumptions.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='07 August 2010 - 03:29 AM' timestamp='1281108562' post='2153239']
Feeling uncomfortable at being checked out by gay men is not homophobia. That word gets thrown around like it's going out of style. What a loaded term.
[/quote]
There are some very touchy people around here lately Nihil. I might have to stop posting until my nose stops bleeding!
BTW I've made myself just as unpopular supporting Gay people as I have supporting Muslims. I guess I'm just naturally 'Rude and combative.' so I've been told.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' date='07 August 2010 - 01:41 AM' timestamp='1281159713' post='2153587']
There are some very touchy people around here lately Nihil. I might have to stop posting until my nose stops bleeding!
BTW I've made myself just as unpopular supporting Gay people as I have supporting Muslims. I guess I'm just naturally 'Rude and combative.' so I've been told.
[/quote]

I would hope that all Catholics support homosexuals - to lead chaste lives - and Muslims - to convert to Christ.

[Maximilianus]

[quote name='Semper Catholic' date='05 August 2010 - 06:01 PM' timestamp='1281042089' post='2152867']
I've spent 8 years active duty in the United States Marine Corps. No one cares and it is exactly the same thing as letting blacks or women serve. Specifically blacks. Almost entirely the same issues.
[/quote]

Check your PMs.

[john654]

H,
Even communist countries understand the homosexuality breaks down order. They ban this disorder for survival reasons.

John

[Hassan]

Stalinism purged the USSR of a huge portion of the intellectual class. The leadership was subsequently filled with ethnic Russians of 'proletariat' backgrounds. That is, undereducated peasants. This, and Stalins' own socially conservative values, a product of his strict Orthodox upbringing and time in the seminary, is what mainly drove the backlash against the sexual freedom encouraged in the USSR during the earliest years of the revolution. The sexual prudishness of the Worker's Paradise was not specific to homosexuals and was the product of an inept theorist's sociological intuitions. And here we see the real link between the anti-homosexuality laws of the USSR and the crusade of the religious-right. Both view it as perfectly reasonable to attack the freedoms of a subset of their population based on superstition and deference to an arbitrary authority. The survival of the Soviet Union was never threatened by homosexuality. In fact the bi-sexual Eisenstein (almost swept up in the purges for his sexual adventures) contributed substantially to the war effort against fascism by producing propaganda films for the regime to rally popular support against Germany. Do you really want to start justifying your intrusions into the personal lives of your fellow citizens on the grounds that, 'well, Stalin did it'?

Edited August 7, 2010 by Hassan

[infinitelord1]

I think the only thing that may effect the military in a negative way by having openly "gay" people in the military is sexual harassment. whether it be in the shower or whatever...there may be gay people who may make a pass at a straight person...and this alone may cause an abrupt environment. In this case, I think that people should make a judgement on whether or not they should file a sexual harassment claim. Other than that, its really nobodys business whether someone has same sex attraction or not. I served in the military for 4 years. And I have seen first handedly how people are oppressed in a way simply just because they are percieved as being homosexual. If you are a person who is percieved of being this way then you are going to have a rough time in the military. People are constantly going to take advantage of this weakness of yours. This really applies in any environment (unfortunately). I think that now that the Dont Ask Dont tell policy is being removed...people will find it easier to defend themselves legally if they are being harassed. They will be able to say that "yes, I am a person who experiences same sex attraction" and "yes, people are harassing me because of that". So in some sense I see the policy being removed is a good thing. However, I dont agree with the Gay lifestyle, and I dont agree with Gay Marriage. Really I think that they should keep the majority of the Dont Ask Dont Tell policy and just take out the part that says you can not make a statement about having same sex attraction.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Semper Catholic' date='06 August 2010 - 01:36 PM' timestamp='1281112567' post='2153282']

Shameful.
[/quote]
LOLOL

My family's military service in this country started in 1775, and has continued in every single war fought by this country, so you should start by thanking my family that you are here Much of my family is Irish and we have been fighting against English oppression for hundreds of years.
No one has stated every gay person in the military is unprofessional or couldn't do their job. Sexuality should not be everyone's business if you are acting professionally. But do you seriously expect anyone [ especially someone with a military family ] to believe that soldiers behave professionally 24/7? Seriously?/?
this is the current law:

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/10/654.html

Here is an interesting article:
http://www.militaryethics.com/

the only reason this is being pushed is because of the effort to force states to accept gay marriage.

[Hassan]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='09 August 2010 - 04:39 PM' timestamp='1281386363' post='2154803']
LOLOL

My family's military service in this country started in 1775, and has continued in every single war fought by this country, so you should start by thanking my family that you are here Much of my family is Irish and we have been fighting against English oppression for hundreds of years.
No one has stated every gay person in the military is unprofessional or couldn't do their job. Sexuality should not be everyone's business if you are acting professionally. But do you seriously expect anyone [ especially someone with a military family ] to believe that soldiers behave professionally 24/7? Seriously?/?
this is the current law:

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/10/654.html

Here is an interesting article:
http://www.militaryethics.com/

the only reason this is being pushed is because of the effort to force states to accept gay marriage.
[/quote]


The first six sentences are in response to your post. There rest are general.

I also come from a long military family. Therefore my opinion cancels out yours. Although, since having a lot of people in your family who fought in our wars really doesn't give one an expertise on these matters, this cancellation has little impact.

No, soldiers do not behave professionally 24/7. If a gay soldier wants to go out drinking and looking for casual sex on the weekends like many of his heterosexual colleagues, it's really his business. If he makes unwanted sexual advances towards another service member then he should be punished just like his heterosexual peers.

Of course, there is no need for speculation. Many armies around the world have opened their ranks to openly gay soldiers. I find it fascinating that proponents sexual intrusion don't just go cite reports from the Israeli army, to pick one army who has engaged in serious combat with openly gay soldiers, citing how adversely this decision has impacted troop performance and moral. The decision to forgo any serious empirical evidence of the deleterious impact allowing openly gay soldiers to serve will have, when this data should be readily available, and choosing instead to remain in the realm of hypothetical "what if?" and "can't you just imagine?" arguments, to me at least, speaks volumes.

You claim to know the reason this issue is being pushed. Not just 'a' reason but 'the only' reason. If you have any actual proof that this is all an insidious plot to get gay marriage, which you don't, I'd be happy to see it. In the meantime, consider this, there are a number of reasons that I supporting allowing openly gay military service. But here is the biggest one. So long as a soldier acts professionally while volunteering to put him or her self into harms way, we owe it to him not to force him to serve with the uncertainty and fear inherent in knowing that at any moment his military career could come crashing down because of what he did with another consenting adult over the weekend, because some armchair warriors have decided that God finds those soldier's private sexual acts icky.

If there is any hard, empirical data that shows a compelling national interest in forcing gay soldiers to hide their orientation then present it. If not, stop trying to shove your unverifiable and faith based sexual morals down other people's throats.

[Semper Catholic]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='09 August 2010 - 03:39 PM' timestamp='1281386363' post='2154803']
LOLOL

My family's military service in this country started in 1775, and has continued in every single war fought by this country, so you should start by thanking my family that you are here Much of my family is Irish and we have been fighting against English oppression for hundreds of years.
No one has stated every gay person in the military is unprofessional or couldn't do their job. Sexuality should not be everyone's business if you are acting professionally. But do you seriously expect anyone [ especially someone with a military family ] to believe that soldiers behave professionally 24/7? Seriously?/?
this is the current law:

[url="http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/10/654.html"]http://www.law.corne...ode/10/654.html[/url]

Here is an interesting article:
[url="http://www.militaryethics.com/"]http://www.militaryethics.com/[/url]

the only reason this is being pushed is because of the effort to force states to accept gay marriage.
[/quote]

Yeah and most women I've served with could barely pass a Physical Fitness Test, got pregnant, or had relations with higher ups.

And we still let women serve.

At least gay men can carry me if I'm wounded in a firefight, at that point I don't care if he's George Michael.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Semper Catholic' date='09 August 2010 - 08:07 PM' timestamp='1281398820' post='2154947']


at that point I don't care if he's George Michael.
[/quote]

What a strange pop-culture reference.

[Semper Catholic]

[quote name='Hassan' date='09 August 2010 - 07:11 PM' timestamp='1281399080' post='2154949']
What a strange pop-culture reference.
[/quote]

Yeah you do not want to listen to "Wake me up before you go-go" before you fall asleep. I got some weird dreams man.