Should Openly Gay People Be Allowed To Serve In The Military?

[Lil Red]

[url="http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2010/07/28/dont_askdont_tell_should_go_106500.html"]Article by John Stossel[/url]

so what do you think, and why?

[cmotherofpirl]

He doesn't see a problem with 25% of the military quitting or not re-upping?
This is simply a back-handed way to force states to accept gay marriage.

[kamiller42]

Don't Ask, Don't Tell should be repealed. Bring back the complete ban.

"One of the fundamental traits of the conservative attitude is a fear of change, a timid distrust of the new as such, while the liberal (today I call it "libertarian") position is based on courage ... to let change run its course even if we cannot predict where it will lead ... ."

Sounds irresponsible. I hope Stossel doesn't think this is an enlightened thought.

[Hilde]

I don't have any strong opinions on this, since it's not something I know a lot about but I reacted to something in the link:

[quote]How would members of America's military feel about repeal of the policy? A Military Times poll found: 71 percent of respondents said they would continue to serve if the policy were overturned, 10 percent said they would not re-enlist or extend their service, and 14 percent said they would consider terminating their careers after serving their obligated tours. That's a pretty strong majority for acceptance.[/quote]First of all, these things do not indicate acceptance, I don't know how he concluded that. Why because 71% won't quit? And by the way that is a lot of people who would quit anyways, so this seems to have dire consequences.

(NB:Made up)71% of Norwegians won't move out of Norway if it becomes a EU member, that means the moajority accepts it.

Edited August 2, 2010 by Hilde

[add]

America is one of many countries that forbid openly gay people to serve in the military. Others are: [url="http://realclearworld.com/topic/around_the_world/cuba/?utm_source=rcw&utm_medium=link&utm_campaign=rcwautolink"]Cuba[/url], [url="http://realclearworld.com/topic/around_the_world/china/?utm_source=rcw&utm_medium=link&utm_campaign=rcwautolink"]China[/url], [url="http://realclearworld.com/topic/around_the_world/egypt/?utm_source=rcw&utm_medium=link&utm_campaign=rcwautolink"]Egypt[/url], [url="http://realclearworld.com/topic/around_the_world/greece/?utm_source=rcw&utm_medium=link&utm_campaign=rcwautolink"]Greece[/url], [url="http://realclearworld.com/topic/around_the_world/iran/?utm_source=rcw&utm_medium=link&utm_campaign=rcwautolink"]Iran[/url], [url="http://realclearworld.com/topic/around_the_world/north_korea/?utm_source=rcw&utm_medium=link&utm_campaign=rcwautolink"]North Korea[/url], [url="http://realclearworld.com/topic/around_the_world/pakistan/?utm_source=rcw&utm_medium=link&utm_campaign=rcwautolink"]Pakistan[/url], [url="http://realclearworld.com/topic/around_the_world/yemen/?utm_source=rcw&utm_medium=link&utm_campaign=rcwautolink"]Yemen[/url], [url="http://realclearworld.com/topic/around_the_world/saudi_arabia/?utm_source=rcw&utm_medium=link&utm_campaign=rcwautolink"]Saudi Arabia[/url], Singapore, [url="http://realclearworld.com/topic/around_the_world/korea/?utm_source=rcw&utm_medium=link&utm_campaign=rcwautolink"]South Korea[/url], [url="http://realclearworld.com/topic/around_the_world/turkey/?utm_source=rcw&utm_medium=link&utm_campaign=rcwautolink"]Turkey[/url] and [url="http://realclearworld.com/topic/around_the_world/venezuela/?utm_source=rcw&utm_medium=link&utm_campaign=rcwautolink"]Venezuela[/url].

See a pattern?

With a few exceptions, those are not countries where free people want to live.

By contrast, [url="http://realclearworld.com/topic/around_the_world/australia/?utm_source=rcw&utm_medium=link&utm_campaign=rcwautolink"]Australia[/url], the [url="http://realclearworld.com/topic/around_the_world/uk/?utm_source=rcw&utm_medium=link&utm_campaign=rcwautolink"]United Kingdom[/url], [url="http://realclearworld.com/topic/around_the_world/israel/?utm_source=rcw&utm_medium=link&utm_campaign=rcwautolink"]Israel[/url], Belgium, Canada, the Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, [url="http://realclearworld.com/topic/around_the_world/france/?utm_source=rcw&utm_medium=link&utm_campaign=rcwautolink"]France[/url], Germany, [url="http://realclearworld.com/topic/around_the_world/italy/?utm_source=rcw&utm_medium=link&utm_campaign=rcwautolink"]Italy[/url], Lithuania, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Norway, Slovenia and [url="http://realclearworld.com/topic/around_the_world/spain/?utm_source=rcw&utm_medium=link&utm_campaign=rcwautolink"]Spain[/url] all allow gay people to serve.

No country has America's in-between policy: Gays can serve -- as long as no one finds out about it. Where did that come from?




if your from Iran you would be killed, just sayin

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='apparently' date='02 August 2010 - 05:29 PM' timestamp='1280788147' post='2151122']
America is one of many countries that forbid openly gay people to serve in the military. Others are: [url="http://realclearworld.com/topic/around_the_world/cuba/?utm_source=rcw&utm_medium=link&utm_campaign=rcwautolink"]Cuba[/url], [url="http://realclearworld.com/topic/around_the_world/china/?utm_source=rcw&utm_medium=link&utm_campaign=rcwautolink"]China[/url], [url="http://realclearworld.com/topic/around_the_world/egypt/?utm_source=rcw&utm_medium=link&utm_campaign=rcwautolink"]Egypt[/url], [url="http://realclearworld.com/topic/around_the_world/greece/?utm_source=rcw&utm_medium=link&utm_campaign=rcwautolink"]Greece[/url], [url="http://realclearworld.com/topic/around_the_world/iran/?utm_source=rcw&utm_medium=link&utm_campaign=rcwautolink"]Iran[/url], [url="http://realclearworld.com/topic/around_the_world/north_korea/?utm_source=rcw&utm_medium=link&utm_campaign=rcwautolink"]North Korea[/url], [url="http://realclearworld.com/topic/around_the_world/pakistan/?utm_source=rcw&utm_medium=link&utm_campaign=rcwautolink"]Pakistan[/url], [url="http://realclearworld.com/topic/around_the_world/yemen/?utm_source=rcw&utm_medium=link&utm_campaign=rcwautolink"]Yemen[/url], [url="http://realclearworld.com/topic/around_the_world/saudi_arabia/?utm_source=rcw&utm_medium=link&utm_campaign=rcwautolink"]Saudi Arabia[/url], Singapore, [url="http://realclearworld.com/topic/around_the_world/korea/?utm_source=rcw&utm_medium=link&utm_campaign=rcwautolink"]South Korea[/url], [url="http://realclearworld.com/topic/around_the_world/turkey/?utm_source=rcw&utm_medium=link&utm_campaign=rcwautolink"]Turkey[/url] and [url="http://realclearworld.com/topic/around_the_world/venezuela/?utm_source=rcw&utm_medium=link&utm_campaign=rcwautolink"]Venezuela[/url].

See a pattern?

With a few exceptions, those are not countries where free people want to live.

By contrast, [url="http://realclearworld.com/topic/around_the_world/australia/?utm_source=rcw&utm_medium=link&utm_campaign=rcwautolink"]Australia[/url], the [url="http://realclearworld.com/topic/around_the_world/uk/?utm_source=rcw&utm_medium=link&utm_campaign=rcwautolink"]United Kingdom[/url], [url="http://realclearworld.com/topic/around_the_world/israel/?utm_source=rcw&utm_medium=link&utm_campaign=rcwautolink"]Israel[/url], Belgium, Canada, the Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, [url="http://realclearworld.com/topic/around_the_world/france/?utm_source=rcw&utm_medium=link&utm_campaign=rcwautolink"]France[/url], Germany, [url="http://realclearworld.com/topic/around_the_world/italy/?utm_source=rcw&utm_medium=link&utm_campaign=rcwautolink"]Italy[/url], Lithuania, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Norway, Slovenia and [url="http://realclearworld.com/topic/around_the_world/spain/?utm_source=rcw&utm_medium=link&utm_campaign=rcwautolink"]Spain[/url] all allow gay people to serve.

No country has America's in-between policy: Gays can serve -- as long as no one finds out about it. Where did that come from?




if your from Iran you would be killed, just sayin
[/quote]

Association fallacy.

[add]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='02 August 2010 - 07:48 PM' timestamp='1280789338' post='2151131']
Association fallacy.
[/quote]

[url="http://atheism.about.com/b/2005/07/25/iran-gay-teens-executed-by-hanging.htm"]link[/url]
[quote]
[i]"In the city of Mashhad in north-eastern Iran, two gay teens have been executed. One was 18 and the other is thought to have been 16 or 17. First they were lashed 228 times, though. Not long after the execution there were howls of outrage from the Iranian parliament - not at the execution itself, but at the temerity of journalists to report it.[/i]" [/quote]


i think not

Edited August 2, 2010 by apparently

[Hassan]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='02 August 2010 - 06:48 PM' timestamp='1280789338' post='2151131']
Association fallacy.
[/quote]
[img]http://pix.motivatedphotos.com/2008/8/26/633553695829349661-MAD.jpg[/img]

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='apparently' date='02 August 2010 - 06:01 PM' timestamp='1280790077' post='2151135']
[url="http://atheism.about.com/b/2005/07/25/iran-gay-teens-executed-by-hanging.htm"]link[/url]



i think not
[/quote]

[url="http://www.fallacyfiles.org/guiltbya.html"]Wrong[/url].

[Hassan]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='02 August 2010 - 07:18 PM' timestamp='1280791104' post='2151150']
[url="http://www.fallacyfiles.org/guiltbya.html"]Wrong[/url].
[/quote]
[img]http://www.comicbookmovie.com/images/users/uploads/10959/girl-you-crazy.gif[/img]

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Hassan' date='02 August 2010 - 06:20 PM' timestamp='1280791238' post='2151152']
[img]http://www.comicbookmovie.com/images/users/uploads/10959/girl-you-crazy.gif[/img]
[/quote]

If I am not mistaken, the point Apparently was trying to make is that forbidding openly homosexual persons to serve in the military is bad because some countries seen as "oppressive" also forbid those who are openly homosexual to serve in the military. This is not a logical train of thought. I hope Apparently forgives me if I am misinterpreting what he is saying.

[Winchester]

Don't we need people to decorate buildings and choreograph USO shows?

[MithLuin]

What it comes down to is that military life is highly structured. You can't just take vacations from work like normal people - you have to put in for leave time, which they may or may not grant you. (Etc.) Your personal life is not your own 'outside of work', because joining the military is not just getting a job. So an in-between policy like DADT results in people who have partners, but then can't request leave to be with them in the hospital while they are dying. I agree that that's not a great way to run things.

It should be a total ban.

Not on being gay and serving, but on having a partner. The military doesn't generally acknowledge boyfriends/girlfriends anyway, and that is unlikely to change. Only spouses count, and gay partners are not spouses.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Winchester' date='02 August 2010 - 07:10 PM' timestamp='1280794201' post='2151167']
Don't we need people to decorate buildings and choreograph USO shows?
[/quote]
Only if it's from taxpayers' money.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='02 August 2010 - 04:23 PM' timestamp='1280791427' post='2151154']
If I am not mistaken, the point Apparently was trying to make is that forbidding openly homosexual persons to serve in the military is bad because some countries seen as "oppressive" also forbid those who are openly homosexual to serve in the military. This is not a logical train of thought. I hope Apparently forgives me if I am misinterpreting what he is saying.
[/quote]
apparently's original post was quoting from the article. you would know that if you had read the article.