Sheep And Goats

[Hassan]

[quote name='Sacred Music Man' date='30 July 2010 - 01:07 AM' timestamp='1280466443' post='2149803']
Heaven isn't about people, though. It's about basking in God's uncreated presence. It's about enjoying the mystery of the triune God for eternity!
[/quote]


I know this. How does it change anything?

[Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam]

[quote name='Hassan' date='30 July 2010 - 02:00 AM' timestamp='1280466017' post='2149798']
[i]
"Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the road broad that leads to destruction, and those who enter through it are many. How narrow the gate and constricted the road that leads to life. And those who find it are few.[/i] Matthew 7:13-14
...
A lot of Christians try to downsize the number of damned. I think that in general (I'm not trying to speak for you in particular) that is because a lot of people are on some level deeply troubled by the idea of hell. I don't see how a small number being damned changes anything. You still have a small number of people being tortured for all eternity. It is torture whether you pain and anguish the damned experience is the absence of God's love, being in the presence of God without being in a saving state of grace, or actual physical torture. And I don't see how it is possibly justified.
[/quote]

Personally, I try to work out my salvation with fear and trembling. I try to run the race well (the verb "try" being the emphasized word). When I think about these things, I think about who is the active agent. It is not so much that God created Hell and damns people to it (an idea you get when you read things like Jonathan Edwards's "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God") but rather that people beaver dam themselves through their own choices and actions. People choose hell ("actions speak louder than words" the old saying goes). Obviously, you know this distinction, but it does make a great deal of difference. In this way, Hell becomes a type of mercy. God will not force His presence on another who does not want such a unity nor will He force one who has willingly chosen not to prepare himself (or has chosen to actively make himself not in accord with who God is) to be in His presence, since such a presence may cause the one to have pain or to suffer and that is a suffering forced on another actively by God since He would be holding back something that they have worked for (separation from Him not only in presence but in the way they have formed their own being). In this way, Hell then is the place where such a person who has chosen not to be in God's presence can go. He can be separated. However, such a separation is chosen on our parts and we work for it. Justice is giving what is due to another. The fruits of one's labors can be Hell and separation from God. Thus infinite Justice demands a Hell for people to choose. Being eternally separated from God is a suffering yes. However, it is a suffering chosen (I don't think Hell is full of fire though the imagery definitely conveys the being of it all well), which is very different even from this life where we often suffer things we don't choose as well as the things we do choose. Yes, Hell is full of wailing and gnashing of teeth and it is an eternal separation from God which would cause much suffering, but often times people reject God and embrace the consequences no matter what (people often choose things and don't want to admit they are wrong and will suffer and suffer rather than admit they were wrong, I don't see how this differs much). Yes, such events are sad; however, I fail to see how there is a distinction (other than in degree) between these events. It seems we should mourn all these actions the same since at the root they are the same, one is too proud to admit He is wrong and would rather suffer separation in some form or another from the Absolute Good. If one would choose such a course of action in small things, why would you expect them to do otherwise in big things since they have already formed their personality and virtues or vices. This type of suffering is a consequence of misused free will. Sad, but that is the way it is.

[Jaime]

[quote name='Hassan' date='30 July 2010 - 01:00 AM' timestamp='1280466017' post='2149798']
[i]
"Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the road broad that leads to destruction, and those who enter through it are many. How narrow the gate and constricted the road that leads to life. And those who find it are few.[/i] Matthew 7:13-14

I'm hardly a Biblical scholar and it has been a long time since I read the Bible. As I recall, however, this is the general sentiment. The road to salvation is narrow and few will enter into heaven. As I recall, most of the parables that Christ told end with a minority of characters being ready when the bridegroom arrives and finding salvation.

Pursuant to rational self-interest, no I would not desire hell. If I were a more moral person, however, I would prefer hell to heaven if all are not saved. I don't see how any morally pure person could enjoy the salvation of heaven while most of humanity is outside grinding and gnashing their teach in the fires of sweet Jesus' Gehenna. I can't think of any human being who has ever lived who doesn't haven even the seeds of the possibility of redemption within him. No human being I am aware of is totally and utterly evil (I don't think you all can believe this either. I think I remember Aquinas saying that even Satan was not totally evil because he possessed good and God given qualities like intellect, but I could well be wrong) and only someone utterly evil could merit eternal, redemptive punishment.

A lot of Christians try to downsize the number of damned. I think that in general (I'm not trying to speak for you in particular) that is because a lot of people are on some level deeply troubled by the idea of hell. I don't see how a small number being damned changes anything. You still have a small number of people being tortured for all eternity. It is torture whether you pain and anguish the damned experience is the absence of God's love, being in the presence of God without being in a saving state of grace, or actual physical torture. And I don't see how it is possibly justified.
[/quote]

Hell is the gift of free will and in that its justified. If God's love for you is 100% unconditional, then God must give you the ability to reject that love. And because it is our choice to be with God or not, there has to be a place for us to exist without His presence. If there were no hell, there would be no free will. We would have no choice but to accept God. Now your argument (and its a popular one) suggests that there are people in hell who tried to be good folk and gave it their best but still didn't make the mark and are burning. And if that were indeed true, you would have a good argument for it not being justified. But when Paul talks about working out his salvation with fear and trembling, its because we have the opportunity to reject God at any given moment. And that's what scared him. (And that's what scares me too) Here's an example that I use in my own life. I have mentors that I admire a lot. They've taken me under their wing and have taught me more than I can say. I have a tremendous fear that I will let them down some day. Do i plan on letting them down? No and most likely I won't . But I would hate to do so. For me its the same with my relationship with God. Its my working out my salvation with fear and trembling.

I don't try to downsize the population of hell because it troubles me. I downsize it because of scripture. ""For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[sup][[url="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john%203:16&version=NIV#fen-NIV-26127a"]a[/url]][/sup] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." comes to mind.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='30 July 2010 - 09:48 AM' timestamp='1280504885' post='2149881']
Hell is the gift of free will and in that its justified. If God's love for you is 100% unconditional, then God must give you the ability to reject that love. And because it is our choice to be with God or not, there has to be a place for us to exist without His presence. If there were no hell, there would be no free will. We would have no choice but to accept God. Now your argument (and its a popular one) suggests that there are people in hell who tried to be good folk and gave it their best but still didn't make the mark and are burning. And if that were indeed true, you would have a good argument for it not being justified. But when Paul talks about working out his salvation with fear and trembling, its because we have the opportunity to reject God at any given moment. And that's what scared him. (And that's what scares me too) Here's an example that I use in my own life. I have mentors that I admire a lot. They've taken me under their wing and have taught me more than I can say. I have a tremendous fear that I will let them down some day. Do i plan on letting them down? No and most likely I won't . But I would hate to do so. For me its the same with my relationship with God. Its my working out my salvation with fear and trembling.

I don't try to downsize the population of hell because it troubles me. I downsize it because of scripture. ""For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[sup][[url="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john%203:16&version=NIV#fen-NIV-26127a"]a[/url]][/sup] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." comes to mind.
[/quote]
+1

[Socrates]

Scripture would indicate that comparatively few enter heaven. In Christ's own words:
[b]"Enter in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many there are who go in thereat. How narrow is the gate, and strait is the way that leads to life: and few there are that find it!"[/b] ~ Matt. 7:13-14

Christ goes on to say:[quote]Not every one that says to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that does the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven. Many will say to me in that day: Lord, Lord, have not we prophesied in your name, and cast out devils in your name, and done many miracles in your name? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity.
[/quote]Matt. 7:21-23

This indicates that not even every "religious" person professing to believe in Christ will be saved.

In the Gospels, Christ actually spoke of hell many more times than he spoke of heaven. I doubt Christ would have spent so much time speaking of hell, and the need to avoid it if almost nobody winds up there, as liberal Catholics like to assert.

This is especially clear if you look at the world, and the number of unrepentant sinners, many of whom make no effort to follow the teachings of Christ.

While they don't have any binding authority, most private revelations of saints consistently indicate that many more go to hell than heaven.


I don't think it's good to worry about numbers and percentages, though; just do all we can to make sure we and others get to heaven.
We should avoid both presumption and despair on this matter.
Christ didn't downplay or downsize hell, and neither should we.

[thessalonian]

Probably more will enter than we think. Fewer Catholics as "to whom much is given much is expected". I think many will be given grace at the point of death sufficient for their salvation, such that serious sin in this life will not stop them from going to heaven, by God's mercy. The sacrament of anointing will be the salvation of many in this day and age. My wife's step dad died recently. He was Catholic but did not attend Church and had many other sins unconffesed. His mother was Lutheran, his Father a poor example of the faith. But he received the anointing and this I believe will be his salvation. This I see as God's mercy. What a merciful God we have though we cannot forget that he is equally just and fall in to the sin of presumption.

Edited July 30, 2010 by thessalonian

[Jaime]

[quote name='Socrates' date='30 July 2010 - 01:19 PM' timestamp='1280510340' post='2149910']
Scripture would indicate that comparatively few enter heaven. In Christ's own words:
[b]"Enter in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many there are who go in thereat. How narrow is the gate, and strait is the way that leads to life: and few there are that find it!"[/b] ~ Matt. 7:13-14

Christ goes on to say:Matt. 7:21-23

This indicates that not even every "religious" person professing to believe in Christ will be saved.

In the Gospels, Christ actually spoke of hell many more times than he spoke of heaven. I doubt Christ would have spent so much time speaking of hell, and the need to avoid it if almost nobody winds up there, as liberal Catholics like to assert.

This is especially clear if you look at the world, and the number of unrepentant sinners, many of whom make no effort to follow the teachings of Christ.

While they don't have any binding authority, most private revelations of saints consistently indicate that many more go to hell than heaven.


I don't think it's good to worry about numbers and percentages, though; just do all we can to make sure we and others get to heaven.
We should avoid both presumption and despair on this matter.
Christ didn't downplay or downsize hell, and neither should we.
[/quote]
this post is inaccurate.

First of all, just in the gospels alone, there are over 100 references to heaven. there are 14 passages that refer to hell.

Secondly to associate the term "liberal" with Catholic in this discussion is ignorant. My spiritual director (hardly liberal) said that he read a quote from Pope Benedict XVI (hardly liberal) stating that it was his personal believe that 10% of people go straight to heaven, 10% go to hell and 80% end up in Purgatory. Now I'm just going to take my spiritual director's word on it because I can't find a direct quote.

One can be an orthodox Catholic and believe that many if not most will go to heaven.

[Apotheoun]

God only knows.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='thessalonian' date='30 July 2010 - 12:39 PM' timestamp='1280511560' post='2149922']
Probably more will enter than we think. Fewer Catholics as "to whom much is given much is expected".
[/quote]

I do not see why less Catholics would go to heaven than non-Catholics considering the classic teaching of [i]extra Ecclesiam nulla salus[/i].

[KnightofChrist]

"If you wish to imitate the multitude, then you shall not be among the few who shall enter in by the narrow gate." - St. Augustine

"It is certain that few are saved." - St. Augustine

"Therefore, few are saved in comparison to those who are damned." - St. Augustine

"The Lord called the world a "field" and all the faithful who draw near to him "wheat." All through the field, and around the threshing-floor, there is both wheat and chaff. But the greater part is chaff; the lesser part is wheat, for which is prepared a barn not a fire. [...] The good also are many, but in comparison with the wicked the good are few. Many are the grains of wheat, but compared with the chaff, the grains are few." - St. Augustine




"Those who are saved are in the minority." - St. Thomas Aquinas



"The Ark, which in the midst of the Flood was a symbol of the Church, was wide below and narrow above; and, at the summit, measured only a single cubit. [...] It was wide where the animals were, narrow where men lived: for the Holy Church is indeed wide in the number of those who are carnal-minded, narrow in the number of those who are spiritual." - Pope St. Gregory the Great

"The more the wicked abound, so much the more must we suffer with them in patience; for on the threshing floor few are the grains carried into the barns, but high are the piles of chaff burned with fire." - Pope St. Gregory the Great

"There are many who arrive at the faith, but few who are led into the heavenly kingdom. Behold how many are gathered here for today's Feast-Day: we fill the church from wall to wall. Yet who knows how few they are who shall be numbered in that chosen company of the Elect?" - Pope St. Gregory the Great



"In the Great Deluge in the days of Noah, nearly all mankind perished, eight persons alone being saved in the Ark. In our days a deluge, not of water but of sins, continually inundates the earth, and out of this deluge very few escape. Scarcely anyone is saved." - St. Alphonsus Maria Liguori

"The greater part of men choose to be damned rather than to love Almighty God." - St. Alphonsus Maria Liguori

"The saints are few, but we must live with the few if we would be saved with the few. O God, too few indeed they are; yet among those few I wish to be!" - St. Alphonsus Maria Liguori

"What is the number of those who love Thee, O God? How few they are! The Elect are much fewer than the damned! Alas! The greater portion of mankind lives in sin unto the devil, and not unto Jesus Christ. O Saviour of the world, I thank Thee for having called and permitted us to live in the true faith which the Holy Roman Catholic Church teaches. [...] But alas, O my Jesus! How small is the number of those who live in this holy faith! Oh, God! The greater number of men lie buried in the darkness of infidelity and heresy. Thou hast humbled Thyself to death, to the death of the cross, for the salvation of men, and these ungrateful men are unwilling even to know Thee. Ah, I pray Thee, O omnipotent God, O sovereign and infinite Good, make all men know and love Thee!" - St. Alphonsus Maria Liguori



"Many begin well, but there are few who persevere." - St. Jerome



"There are few who are saved." - Saint Anselm



"Yes, indeed, many will be damned; few will be saved." - St. Benedict Joseph of Labre



"Live with the few if you want to reign with the few." - St. John Climacus



"What do you think? How many of the inhabitants of this city may perhaps be saved? What I am about to tell you is very terrible, yet I will not conceal it from you. Out of this thickly populated city with its thousands of inhabitants not one hundred people will be saved. I even doubt whether there will be as many as that!" - St. John Chrysostom



"The majority of men shall not see God, excepting those who live justly, purified by righteousness and by every other virtue." - St. Justin the Martyr



"The number of the saved is as few as the number of grapes left after the vineyard-pickers have passed." - St. John Mary Vianney



"So vast a number of miserable souls perish, and so comparatively few are saved!" - St. Philip Neri

[dominicansoul]

perhaps 1 billion catholics outta 6 billion people is considered "the few" that God is speaking of...

we can never know, only God knows... what's a lot to us may be a few to Him...

[Hassan]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='30 July 2010 - 11:48 AM' timestamp='1280504885' post='2149881']
Hell is the gift of free will and in that its justified. If God's love for you is 100% unconditional, then God must give you the ability to reject that love. And because it is our choice to be with God or not, there has to be a place for us to exist without His presence. If there were no hell, there would be no free will. We would have no choice but to accept God.[/QUOTE]

You are writing as though the dichotomy between eternal salvation and eternal damnation is the strictly logical consequence of free will. I see no reason to accecpt this premiss. The system is one created by God. Hunamity never asked for existence in the first place or immortality. Both of these are God's decision. Humanity never asked for death in this life. God decided that would be the consequence of Adam's sin. God could allow sinful humanity to remain in this life and simply take the Saints or those ready for purgatory in death. He could do any number of things differently that wouldn't result in human being being tortured for all eternity in hell.

[QUOTE]Now your argument (and its a popular one) suggests that there are people in hell who tried to be good folk and gave it their best but still didn't make the mark and are burning. And if that were indeed true, you would have a good argument for it not being justified. [/QUOTE]

I'm not really saying that at all. I am simply saying that nobody is totally evil and only somebody with no good in them could possibly merit eternal punishment. The Rich Man in hell asks Abraham (? Maybe it was another patriarch, it has been a long time since I nread the Bible, I'm sorry if that is incorrect) to warn his brothers so they will not suffer his fate. He was not a totally evil man. He had great faults but he was also capeable of selflessness and goodness. He stopped asking for the relief from his own sufferings (a drop of water on his tongue) and simply begged those in heaven to help him warn his brothers so they could be spared his fate. That man did not deserve eternal damnation.

[QUOTE]But when Paul talks about working out his salvation with fear and trembling, its because we have the opportunity to reject God at any given moment. And that's what scared him. (And that's what scares me too) Here's an example that I use in my own life. I have mentors that I admire a lot. They've taken me under their wing and have taught me more than I can say. I have a tremendous fear that I will let them down some day. Do i plan on letting them down? No and most likely I won't . But I would hate to do so. For me its the same with my relationship with God. Its my working out my salvation with fear and trembling.

I don't try to downsize the population of hell because it troubles me. I downsize it because of scripture. ""For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[sup][[url="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john%203:16&version=NIV#fen-NIV-26127a"]a[/url]][/sup] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." comes to mind.
[/quote]


That verse doesn't say anything about quantity. It simply says that God loved the world enough that he was willing to give his only son so that all might have the possability of eternal life. All the scriptre that I can think of which make quantative statements of the saved seem to emphaize that the number of saved will be few.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='30 July 2010 - 03:26 PM' timestamp='1280517978' post='2149962']
God only knows.
[/quote]

Probably the best answer given by anyone

[Hassan]

[quote name='Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam' date='30 July 2010 - 02:15 AM' timestamp='1280470538' post='2149816']
Personally, I try to work out my salvation with fear and trembling. I try to run the race well (the verb "try" being the emphasized word). When I think about these things, I think about who is the active agent. It is not so much that God created Hell and damns people to it (an idea you get when you read things like Jonathan Edwards's "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God") but rather that people beaver dam themselves through their own choices and actions. People choose hell ("actions speak louder than words" the old saying goes). Obviously, you know this distinction, but it does make a great deal of difference. In this way, Hell becomes a type of mercy. God will not force His presence on another who does not want such a unity nor will He force one who has willingly chosen not to prepare himself (or has chosen to actively make himself not in accord with who God is) to be in His presence, since such a presence may cause the one to have pain or to suffer and that is a suffering forced on another actively by God since He would be holding back something that they have worked for (separation from Him not only in presence but in the way they have formed their own being). In this way, Hell then is the place where such a person who has chosen not to be in God's presence can go. He can be separated. However, such a separation is chosen on our parts and we work for it. Justice is giving what is due to another. The fruits of one's labors can be Hell and separation from God. Thus infinite Justice demands a Hell for people to choose. Being eternally separated from God is a suffering yes. However, it is a suffering chosen (I don't think Hell is full of fire though the imagery definitely conveys the being of it all well), which is very different even from this life where we often suffer things we don't choose as well as the things we do choose. Yes, Hell is full of wailing and gnashing of teeth and it is an eternal separation from God which would cause much suffering, but often times people reject God and embrace the consequences no matter what (people often choose things and don't want to admit they are wrong and will suffer and suffer rather than admit they were wrong, I don't see how this differs much). Yes, such events are sad; however, I fail to see how there is a distinction (other than in degree) between these events. It seems we should mourn all these actions the same since at the root they are the same, one is too proud to admit He is wrong and would rather suffer separation in some form or another from the Absolute Good. If one would choose such a course of action in small things, why would you expect them to do otherwise in big things since they have already formed their personality and virtues or vices. This type of suffering is a consequence of misused free will. Sad, but that is the way it is.
[/quote]

You and Jai me made many simmilar points. I appreciated your post and I read it carefully. For now I just responded to hot stuff since I'd mostly be repeating myself and I'd appreciate your thoughts on that. In a few days I'll probably respond to the extra points that you made here.

[thessalonian]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='30 July 2010 - 03:30 PM' timestamp='1280518208' post='2149963']
I do not see why less Catholics would go to heaven than non-Catholics considering the classic teaching of [i]extra Ecclesiam nulla salus[/i].
[/quote]


I didn't say less Catholics than non-catholics. I said less Catholics than we think will go.