Did Jesus Suffer Common Afflictions?

[Sarah147]

Jesus is completely God, and completely man. So of course he experienced human feelings, pains, hunger, etc.

[Ed Normile]

[quote name='kafka' date='27 July 2010 - 10:51 AM' timestamp='1280245899' post='2148686']
you have to keep in mind he is like us in all things except sin. He didnt have a fallen human nature. So he had himself in perfect order.

Some of our personal afflictions are due to our fallen nature. [b]Our tendency to be short-sighted, foolish, stupid, etc.
[/b][/quote]

Hey, why did you single me out ?? [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/sadder.gif[/img]

ed

[let_go_let_God]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='27 July 2010 - 12:54 PM' timestamp='1280253253' post='2148736']
Christ is a divine person, not a human person, and so anything that He did in His humanity, He did intentionally. Christ was never "uncontrolled" in His humanity. Moreover, there is nothing fallen or sinful about human nature, and so we should avoid talking about the incarnation in a Calvinist manner; instead, what is "fallen" is man's personal employment of his nature, and in Christ's case the person employing human nature is a divine person, who cannot err, nor can He ever be governed by His passions. All that is in Christ is governed by His divine intellect and will.
[/quote]

But Christ is fully human [b]and[/b] fully divine. True, Christ was very intentional in His words and actions, but Christ was not without human emotions, reactions and temptations. Yes, Christ could overcome these quite easily but He still experienced them.

The human body itself is prone to illness. In my opinion to say that Jesus never was ill is a bold statement to make. He was probably ill at some point but was able to heal quite quickly due to His divine nature.

God bless-
LGLG

[Lil Red]

yes, but he did so willingly.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='let_go_let_God' date='29 July 2010 - 08:04 AM' timestamp='1280415860' post='2149452']
But Christ is fully human [b]and[/b] fully divine. True, Christ was very intentional in His words and actions, but Christ was not without human emotions, reactions and temptations. Yes, Christ could overcome these quite easily but He still experienced them.

The human body itself is prone to illness. In my opinion to say that Jesus never was ill is a bold statement to make. He was probably ill at some point but was able to heal quite quickly due to His divine nature.

God bless-
LGLG
[/quote]
but i thought that sickness and death were due to the fall (meaning sin)?

[let_go_let_God]

Result of the fall as dictated in Genesis 3 is such.

"Then the Lord God said to the serpent: Because you have done this, you shall be banned from all the animals, and from all the wild creatures; On your belly you shall crawl, and dirt you shall eat all the days of your life. I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; He will strike at your head while you strike at his heel. To the woman he said: I will intensify the pangs of your childbearing; in pain shall you bring forth children. Yet your urge shall be for your husband, and he shall be your master." [...] "Cursed be the ground because of you! In toil shall you eat its yield all the days of your life. Thorns and thistles shall it bring forth to you, as you eat of the plants of the field. By the sweat of your face shall you get bread to eat, until you return to the ground, from which you were taken; for you are dirt and to dirt you shall return."

We are told that we are going to die, yes but nothing about you are going to be sick, ill or plagued. Yes these are ways can die, but we don't often die from the sniffles or hay fever."

Looking further, Genesis 3:22 "Then the Lord God said: 'See! The man has become like one of us, knowing what is good and what is bad! Therefore, he must not be allowed to put out his hand to take fruit from the tree of life also, and thus eat of it and live forever."

Genesis 1:23 states "God created man in his image; in the divine image he created him; male and female He created them."

Being created in God's image shows us the state of our souls, not of our bodies. We are created with immortal souls (set beginning but no end), unlike God who is eternal. This would have been the pre-fall plan since it still exists post-fall.

Therefore, what would have been God's point of protecting the Tree of Life from Adam and Eve post-fall if they weren't going to die at some point before the fall. The death God knew about had to mean something greater. Death meaning the separation between God and man.

Jesus had to die, not because of his human nature, but to go to the place where all souls were being kept that had died, which reinstated the the connection between humanity and God.

God bless-
LGLG

[Catholictothecore]

Oy, this is one of those questions that would delight a priest I know. Fr. Andy would love it because it's an extremly simple question to ask that results in extremly deep (and often confusing) answers. It gets even more confusing because what started with one question, "did Jesus get the sniffles?", is now that plus "Which nature of Christ is dominnt?"

I think the answer to the first lies in the second.

Christ is both fully human and fully divine. It is not about which nature was dominant. Neither was. Yes, God the Son existed well before Jesus the baby, Jesus the todler, Jesus the teen, and Jesus the man. But, God the Son choose to wait patiently through all those stages of life in order to fully encounter his humanity. Why? (Blast, there's another question. Bear with me.)

When Adam and Eve sinned, they broke a connection with God that was fundamental to what we are supposed to be. He wanted us to say "Father, your will be done in all things. You are most wise." He gave us the choice to say "Father, I'm going to do my own will. I don't know it's the best, but I'm going to do it anyway." We choose to do our own wills. To not trust God in all things.

This created a situation that required Jesus to be both compltely man and completely God. Only God could offer a sacrifice that had enough weight to forgive our sin. Yet, only man had sinned and needed to offer sacrifice, so man had to fully, faithfully, fruitfully participate. Christs dual natures are the answer to this. He cannot be one over the other. From the second of his conception, he is one person with two natures, one eternal, one human.

Christ was the ideal human being. In every way. He made up in all his life what Adam lacked, what we all lack. Jesus says "I have come down from heaven not to do my will, but the will of of him who sent me." (John 6:38.) In everything that he did, he said "Yes, Father, your will be done. You are most wise." So, even if we don't know, can't know for certain that Jesus ever once suffered a head cold, we can know that both his divine and human wills offered anything and everyting he experienced as an offering of loving sacrifice to God the Father. If he did get sick, his divine will offered the Father a "yes, Father, I, your eternal and only begotten son, offer you love and acceptance of your will; that I should experience this." And, at the same time, his human will suffered and said "Yes, Father, because I know you love me, your creation, and you will it for me, knowing what is best, I offer you this suffering in accordance with your will." And these two thoughts, both of love, are equally and essentially apart of the person who exists in our tabernacles, offers and renews his sacrficie at the altar, and enters our selves through Holy Communion.

[Slappo]

[quote name='let_go_let_God' date='29 July 2010 - 08:04 AM' timestamp='1280415860' post='2149452']
But Christ is fully human [b]and[/b] fully divine. True, Christ was very intentional in His words and actions, but Christ was not without human emotions, reactions and temptations. Yes, Christ could overcome these quite easily but He still experienced them.

The human body itself is prone to illness. In my opinion to say that Jesus never was ill is a bold statement to make. He was probably ill at some point but was able to heal quite quickly due to His divine nature.

God bless-
LGLG
[/quote]


[quote name='let_go_let_God' date='29 July 2010 - 11:20 AM' timestamp='1280427623' post='2149541']
Result of the fall as dictated in Genesis 3 is such.

"Then the Lord God said to the serpent: Because you have done this, you shall be banned from all the animals, and from all the wild creatures; On your belly you shall crawl, and dirt you shall eat all the days of your life. I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; He will strike at your head while you strike at his heel. To the woman he said: I will intensify the pangs of your childbearing; in pain shall you bring forth children. Yet your urge shall be for your husband, and he shall be your master." [...] "Cursed be the ground because of you! In toil shall you eat its yield all the days of your life. Thorns and thistles shall it bring forth to you, as you eat of the plants of the field. By the sweat of your face shall you get bread to eat, until you return to the ground, from which you were taken; for you are dirt and to dirt you shall return."

We are told that we are going to die, yes but nothing about you are going to be sick, ill or plagued. Yes these are ways can die, but we don't often die from the sniffles or hay fever."

Looking further, Genesis 3:22 "Then the Lord God said: 'See! The man has become like one of us, knowing what is good and what is bad! Therefore, he must not be allowed to put out his hand to take fruit from the tree of life also, and thus eat of it and live forever."

Genesis 1:23 states "God created man in his image; in the divine image he created him; male and female He created them."

Being created in God's image shows us the state of our souls, not of our bodies. We are created with immortal souls (set beginning but no end), unlike God who is eternal. This would have been the pre-fall plan since it still exists post-fall.

Therefore, what would have been God's point of protecting the Tree of Life from Adam and Eve post-fall if they weren't going to die at some point before the fall. The death God knew about had to mean something greater. Death meaning the separation between God and man.

Jesus had to die, not because of his human nature, but to go to the place where all souls were being kept that had died, which reinstated the the connection between humanity and God.

God bless-
LGLG
[/quote]

It is common theological speculation that even the Blessed Virgin could not have died from physical ailments/illnesses because she did not have a fallen nature from Original Sin. I believe that it is actually a teaching of the East, Apo can explain or denounce that though.

Through the fall of our human nature, evil entered into the world. Suffering and physical death are natural evils, therefore without the fall of human nature, suffering and death would not have entered the world.

[kafka]

human persons die as a result of the Fall.

My rough understanding is Jesus did not die as a result of the Fall. He did not assume a fallen human nature. The Son died in obedience to the Father who willed it as the means of redemption as well as the ultimate expression of what God is, namely Love which is greater than death. So, Jesus, the Divine Son, willed his own death as a means. No one took his life from him, he laid it down freely, by his own power:

{10:18} No one takes it away from me. Instead, I lay it down of my own accord. And I have the power to lay it down. And I have the power to take it up again. This is the commandment that I have received from my Father.”

I like and agree with the idea that Mary did not have a fallen human nature. She died since God willed it. She is the perfect disciple of Christ. Though she did not have a fallen human nature she willed her own death as a means to follow Jesus in all things for love's sake and to fulfill her role. But she did not have the power to lay it down like Christ did since she is a human person, she is not God. So God took it from her.

Edited July 29, 2010 by kafka

[Slappo]

[quote name='kafka' date='29 July 2010 - 03:13 PM' timestamp='1280441584' post='2149672']
human persons die as a result of the Fall.

My rough understanding is Jesus did not die as a result of the Fall. He did not assume a fallen human nature. The Son died in obedience to the Father who willed it as the means of redemption as well as the ultimate expression of what God is, namely Love which is greater than death. So, Jesus, the Divine Son, willed his own death as a means. No one took his life from him, he laid it down freely, by his own power:

{10:18} No one takes it away from me. Instead, I lay it down of my own accord. And I have the power to lay it down. And I have the power to take it up again. This is the commandment that I have received from my Father.”

[b]I like and agree with the idea that Mary did not have a fallen human nature. She died since God willed it. She is the perfect disciple of Christ. Though she did not have a fallen human nature she willed her own death as a means to follow Jesus in all things for love's sake and to fulfill her role. But she did not have the power to lay it down like Christ did since she is a human person, she is not God. So God took it from her.[/b]
[/quote]

I've heard some speculate that Mary died of ecstacy out of love for God.

[kafka]

[quote name='Slappo' date='29 July 2010 - 07:07 PM' timestamp='1280444876' post='2149686']
I've heard some speculate that Mary died of ecstacy out of love for God.
[/quote]
that could be the case. Blessed Imelda Lambertini died like this, a martyr of the Eucharist.

But God would have given Mary some unique gift which would have caused the ecstasy which would lead to death. She doesnt have the power in her person or nature to will/cause her own death.

Edited July 29, 2010 by kafka

[kafka]

I should see if Blessed Anne Catherine Emmerich has anything about Mary's death.

[Galloglasses' Alt]

The question of this thread is basically the same as asking whether or not Our Lord had to scratch His chin once in a while because it itched.

Edited August 1, 2010 by Galloglasses' Alt

[MithLuin]

I think there are a few issues rolled together in this. Part of it is asking if Jesus (as God and Man) could make 'mistakes'. Could he be startled and drop a jug on his toe? Could he not see a step and trip over it? As the all-knowing creator of the world...it seems a bit mind-boggling for that to happen. But it also wouldn't seem 'really human' if child Jesus had never tripped or dropped anything. Obviously we're not talking about anything sinful, just a conscious choice to limit his awareness of his surroundings to his human senses rather than his divine knowledge for the simple everyday things like walking around. Why did he have to ask 'Who touched me?' in the crowd when he healed the woman with the hemorrhage? At the end of the day, I'm not overly concerned with how he did this. It's enough for me to say 'He was like us in all things but sin' and leave it there.

No one is suggesting he never experienced pain. We know he was scourged and crucified, which had to be a pretty brutal experience. I'm sure he [i]could[/i] have 'sent his mind away' and not experienced the pain to the full, but I rather doubt he used his divine nature to 'skip out' of this redemptive suffering. His words in the Garden were of acceptance. If that's the case...why would he have used it to avoid stubbed toes?

The other truth is that an unfallen human nature (like Adam and Eve's) would not be subject to concupiscence. There would not be a 'tug' from human appetites that would be a struggle for the human will to deal with. The nature is ordered, not disordered. So, Jesus could get hungry and shiver from cold...but these experiences would not lead to a demand on the will to, say, steal food or blankets. I am not suggesting that he did not experience temptation, but that he did not experience concupiscence, so he dealt with the temptations a lot better than we (as fallen humans) do.

Jesus is God, but in choosing to be born as a baby, he had to learn how to talk, and how to walk, and everything else, just like other children. Did he 'have' to do it that way? Probably not, but he has great humility, and perhaps wanted to share our experiences of these things. He did know things without being taught by his parents, of course - as He demonstrated in the Temple, his understanding was not strictly that of a 12 year old child. But I doubt he was born talking and walking.

[Apotheoun]

It is always important to bear in mind that Christ is a divine person. There is a Nestorian tendency in the modern West which, intentionally or unintentionally, divides the two natures in Christ in such a way that people begin to concretize the human nature without any connection to the divine Logos. That said, in order to avoid this error, it is necessary to make a distinction - i.e., one that the Holy Fathers often made - between theoretical knowledge and experiential knowledge, and this distinction when be applied to the incarnate Logos allows one to say that the divine Logos knows all things because He is the second divine hypostasis of the Holy Trinity, but that he also simultaneously gains experiential knowledge in a human manner as He grows and develops in His assumed manhood.

Edited August 10, 2010 by Apotheoun