Did Jesus Suffer Common Afflictions?

[Ziggamafu]

What say you? And why?

[CatherineM]

If he was human, he had to have suffered from common human complaints.

[Apotheoun]

He did, but there is a difference that must be borne in mind, for Christ suffered innocent passions willingly, which means that they were always in His control, while we are afflicted with these sufferings against our will.

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='26 July 2010 - 01:42 PM' timestamp='1280166134' post='2148279']
He did, but there is a difference that must be borne in mind, for Christ suffered innocent passions willingly, which means that they were always in His control, while we are afflicted with these sufferings against our will.
[/quote]
Indeed. Even a headache was for our sake

[kafka]

As far as I know on occasion yes. Jesus was like us in all things except for sin:

Hebrews
{2:17} Therefore, it is fitting for him to be made similar to his brothers in all things,

{4:15} For we do not have a high priest who is unable to have compassion on our infirmities, but rather one who was tempted in all things, just as we are, yet without sin.

"The Son of God. . . worked with human hands; he thought with a human mind. He acted with a human will, and with a human heart he loved. Born of the Virgin Mary, he has truly been made one of us, like to us in all things except sin." (Gaudium et Spes 22.2)

[Luigi]

I'm sure he had the head colds, measles, mumps, chicken pox, and the full assortment of Galilean chilhood diseases. Since he was a carpenter, he probably had hundreds of splinters, hammered thumbs, calluses, etc (even the best carpenters hammer their thumbs sometimes). He may even have suffered from what was called - back there and then - Hassan's malady.

[Ed Normile]

[quote name='Luigi' date='26 July 2010 - 11:33 PM' timestamp='1280205225' post='2148607']
I'm sure he had the head colds, measles, mumps, chicken pox, and the full assortment of Galilean chilhood diseases. Since he was a carpenter, he probably had hundreds of splinters, hammered thumbs, calluses, etc (even the best carpenters hammer their thumbs sometimes). He may even have suffered from what was called - back there and then - Hassan's malady.
[/quote]


I am sure he suffered in his human state, but I doubt disfiguring diseases such as measles mumps or chicken pox, he was descibed as ordinary in appearance afterall.

Hassan's malady? hoove in mouth disease? [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif[/img]

ed

[let_go_let_God]

[quote name='Ed Normile' date='27 July 2010 - 12:24 AM' timestamp='1280208241' post='2148624']
I am sure he suffered in his human state, but I doubt disfiguring diseases such as measles mumps or chicken pox, he was descibed as ordinary in appearance afterall.
[/quote]

Measles, mumps, or chicken pox aren't necessarily disfiguring. He may have had them but he had the self control not to itch or do anything that would cause further infection.

I'm sure he did get sick on various occasions but it's not to say that he didn't get better more quickly than his counterparts.

God bless-
LGLG

[Ziggamafu]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='26 July 2010 - 01:42 PM' timestamp='1280166134' post='2148279']
He did, but there is a difference that must be borne in mind, for Christ suffered innocent passions willingly, which means that they were always in His control, while we are afflicted with these sufferings against our will.
[/quote]

Do you mean to say that if (hypothetically), while speaking with someone, Jesus "uncontrollably" (read: common affliction) belched in mid-sentence, he did so by deliberation? Of course I agree that he could exercise His divine nature at any time (and of course, His divine nature was never hibernating, as if that was even a possibility), but I do not necessarily think that He willed for His human nature to always act on and be affected by His environment with deliberation rather than mere "chance" (that is, the natural order or lack thereof in the fallen world He inhabited). In other words, I think that he humanly was caught off guard by this kind of stuff. Humanly, though of course not sinfully, frustrated or embarrassed when something crazy happened, like a wind tossing His robe into His face while preaching. I think he probably burst out into a few good belly laughs. Etc. In other words, although He is one Person, I think He willed for His human nature to make extremely limited use of His divine nature (including, say, foreknowledge of a tree stump that would stub His toe). That's why He had to "learn obedience" and have "faith" even though He was omniscient.

[kafka]

you have to keep in mind he is like us in all things except sin. He didnt have a fallen human nature. So he had himself in perfect order.

Some of our personal afflictions are due to our fallen nature. Our tendency to be short-sighted, foolish, stupid, etc.

[Ziggamafu]

[quote name='kafka' date='27 July 2010 - 11:51 AM' timestamp='1280245899' post='2148686']
you have to keep in mind he is like us in all things except sin. He didnt have a fallen human nature. So he had himself in perfect order.

Some of our personal afflictions are due to our fallen nature. Our tendency to be short-sighted, foolish, stupid, etc.
[/quote]

Since He had in Himself a perfect order, He did not need to suffer a single common affliction. All afflictions are due to our fallen nature and the nature of this fallen world. If Christ willingly chose to endure these common afflictions, I see no reason to suspect that each one was divorced from the other non-sinful reactions typical of human nature. Embarrassment and frustration, among so many other experiences are not sinful at all; they are quite natural responses to experiencing a fallen world. In a word: human. Christ embraced the fullness of non-sinful human experience. He was like us in every way except sin. Indeed, His sinless would seem to amplify human responses such as embarrassment or frustration or whatever, because the situation of the fallen world would seem so utterly stupid to an all-holy person.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' date='27 July 2010 - 09:30 AM' timestamp='1280244602' post='2148673']
Do you mean to say that if (hypothetically), while speaking with someone, Jesus "uncontrollably" (read: common affliction) belched in mid-sentence, he did so by deliberation? Of course I agree that he could exercise His divine nature at any time (and of course, His divine nature was never hibernating, as if that was even a possibility), but I do not necessarily think that He willed for His human nature to always act on and be affected by His environment with deliberation rather than mere "chance" (that is, the natural order or lack thereof in the fallen world He inhabited). In other words, I think that he humanly was caught off guard by this kind of stuff. Humanly, though of course not sinfully, frustrated or embarrassed when something crazy happened, like a wind tossing His robe into His face while preaching. I think he probably burst out into a few good belly laughs. Etc. In other words, although He is one Person, I think He willed for His human nature to make extremely limited use of His divine nature (including, say, foreknowledge of a tree stump that would stub His toe). That's why He had to "learn obedience" and have "faith" even though He was omniscient.
[/quote]
Christ is a divine person, not a human person, and so anything that He did in His humanity, He did intentionally. Christ was never "uncontrolled" in His humanity. Moreover, there is nothing fallen or sinful about human nature, and so we should avoid talking about the incarnation in a Calvinist manner; instead, what is "fallen" is man's personal employment of his nature, and in Christ's case the person employing human nature is a divine person, who cannot err, nor can He ever be governed by His passions. All that is in Christ is governed by His divine intellect and will.

Edited July 27, 2010 by Apotheoun

[Ziggamafu]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='27 July 2010 - 01:54 PM' timestamp='1280253253' post='2148736']
Christ is a divine person, not a human person, and so anything that He did in His humanity, He did intentionally. Christ was never "uncontrolled" in His humanity. Moreover, there is nothing fallen or sinful about human nature, and so we should avoid talking about the incarnation in a Calvinist manner; instead, what is "fallen" is man's personal employment of his nature, and in Christ's case the person employing human nature is a divine person, who cannot err, nor can He ever be governed by His passions. All that is in Christ is governed by His divine intellect and will.
[/quote]

Hmm. Do you think I'm putting too much tension between the two natures, then? It sounds like you're saying that the divine nature totally dominated the human nature to the extent that little seems to remain human about it. A central aspect of human nature is its finitude and localization. Thus we experience spontaneity and can grow and learn things like obedience and faith.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' date='27 July 2010 - 12:12 PM' timestamp='1280254354' post='2148748']
Hmm. Do you think I'm putting too much tension between the two natures, then? [/quote]
Yes, that is what I think. The tendency of Western Christians, especially in the modern era, is to concretize Christ's human nature independently of His divine hypostasis. In other words, modern Christology tends to turn Christ's human nature into an agent of action, i.e., a person.

[quote name='Ziggamafu' date='27 July 2010 - 12:12 PM' timestamp='1280254354' post='2148748']
It sounds like you're saying that the divine nature totally dominated the human nature to the extent that little seems to remain human about it. A central aspect of human nature is its finitude and localization. Thus we experience spontaneity and can grow and learn things like obedience and faith.[/quote]
The divine nature did not do anything, because natures do not act, only persons act. Christ is a divine person who has assumed human nature and become man. The unity of Christ's person is the key to understanding the Christology of scripture as expounded at Ephesus, Chalcedon, and Constantinople II, for - as the Holy Fathers decreed - it is the eternal and uncreated person of the Logos who acts divinely and humanly in the stories recounted in the Gospels, and who continues to act as Head of His body the Church throughout time and into the eschaton.

[Slappo]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='27 July 2010 - 11:21 AM' timestamp='1280254882' post='2148754']
Yes, that is what I think. The tendency of Western Christians, especially in the modern era, is to concretize Christ's human nature independently of His divine hypostasis. In other words, modern Christology tends to turn Christ's human nature into an agent of action, i.e., a person.


The divine nature did not do anything, because natures do not act, only persons act. Christ is a divine person who has assumed human nature and become man. The unity of Christ's person is the key to understanding the Christology of scripture as expounded at Ephesus, Chalcedon, and Constantinople II, for - as the Holy Fathers decreed - it is the eternal and uncreated person of the Logos who acts divinely and humanly in the stories recounted in the Gospels, and who continues to act as Head of His body the Church throughout time and into the eschaton.
[/quote]


I like this post...


A lot.



Makes me wonder if I too sometimes think of Christ too humananly to the point of his human nature itself being a person...

I guess I don't really view Jesus as a "best friend" or buddy in the common terminology today. He is of course a friend in the sense that I strive to be "A friend of God". I don't go hang out with my friend Jesus in adoration though. I go to worship and adore the Creator of the Universe whom humbled Himself to become Man.