Children Being Strip-Scanned At Airports

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Lounge Daddy' date='20 July 2010 - 11:21 AM' timestamp='1279650106' post='2145503']
Now, at what point do we collectively say enough? [url="http://www.datelinezero.com/?p=1585"]I posted the article, along with some venting, at my blog[/url].

This doesn't make me feel more secure. How about you?
[/quote]
just another reason not to fly (among many)

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='20 July 2010 - 09:02 PM' timestamp='1279684925' post='2145812']
So does anyone care to place bets regarding how long it will take until scanned images are stored in a central database for X number of years, for security purposes?
[/quote]
don't you mean "security purposes"?

[CatherineM]

[quote name='ThePenciledOne' date='21 July 2010 - 03:49 PM' timestamp='1279745361' post='2146106']
If children don't even get exemption, why would a society that condones abortion give a pregnant woman a pass?
[/quote]
Because of the fear of lawsuits resulting from birth defects caused by X-rays on the fetus.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='22 July 2010 - 07:42 AM' timestamp='1279798977' post='2146272']
Your statement is untrue. You [i]do[/i] have the right to travel unrestricted among the mini-States. The Federal State has no power to interfere. This right to travel is not only a God-given right, but a right allegedly protected (not granted) by the Constitution.
[/quote]
Ignoring the rest of your post (because it's based on a false premise), the right to travel may indeed be a right guaranteed by the State and by the Lord. The right to [i]air[/i] travel is not.


[quote name='Lounge Daddy' date='22 July 2010 - 07:06 AM' timestamp='1279796794' post='2146271']
Five thoughts, the first two are about 9/11 directly:

1 - [u]You cannot preserve liberty by suspending the principles of liberty.[/u] That is a mentality that will lead to a very bad place. Liberty in exchange for the promise of security will lead to neither, as Benjamin Franklin warned.

2 - [u]Government failure occurred because government didn't use the tools that it already had[/u] -- not because the Federal State didn't have enough power. Government is irresponsible with the power it has, why would be give it more, and suspend more of our liberty?

3 - [u]The Federal State has no obligation to defend you. None.[/u] (Despite what a politician, wanting your vote, might say.) The Federal State has zero constitutional obligation to defend you. So why would we give the Federal Government so much power, and suspend so much liberty?

4 - [u]The Political Class has no incentive to be efficient, and no interest in keeping members of the private class safe[/u]. The focus of the government is to create the illusion of safety -- not to have actual, genuine safety. And the incentive for the Political class is to pacify the private class and to grab power at each and every opportunity (at the cost of your liberty and mine).

5 - When the Federal State implements programs like this one under the premise that it is to fight [u]"terrorists," remember that the government doesn't just mean Muslims[/u].
[/quote]
Again, when all of these things start impacting something that is a [i]right[/i] of mine - not a [i]privilege [/i]or [i]convenience[/i] - then I will grow upset.

[Lounge Daddy]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' date='22 July 2010 - 12:00 PM' timestamp='1279818025' post='2146332']
Ignoring the rest of your post (because it's based on a false premise), the right to travel may indeed be a right guaranteed by the State and by the Lord. The right to [i]air[/i] travel is not.
...
Again, when all of these things start impacting something that is a [i]right[/i] of mine - not a [i]privilege [/i]or [i]convenience[/i] - then I will grow upset.
[/quote]

If this was something put into place by airlines, that would be cause for upset. But it is being put into place by the Federal Government, [url="http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/world/tsa-says-that-full-body-scans-will-now-be-mandatory_100335908.html"]and it will be enforced on all flights at all airports[/url].
[quote]The Transportation Security Administration has announced that there are plans in the pipeline, to make the full body scans of passengers compulsory.
[/quote]

Also, my rights don't come from a State. If your rights do, I hope you have fun with whatever remains of them. And, anyway, I suppose you always have the right to shrug in the face of injustice and indignity, and then to look the other way.

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' date='22 July 2010 - 12:00 PM' timestamp='1279818025' post='2146332']
Ignoring the rest of your post (because it's based on a false premise), the right to travel may indeed be a right guaranteed by the State and by the Lord. The right to [i]air[/i] travel is not.
[/quote]

A false premise? What false premise?


Simply because a right[i] [/i]is not enumerated in the Constitution does not mean that you do not [i]have [/i]that right. That is what the Ninth Amendment means. According to the "you don't have a right unless it is enumerated" misconception, no one has a "Constitutional right" to [i]get married [/i]or to have any specific number of children, or to own a dog or a book.

~Sternhauser

Edited July 22, 2010 by Sternhauser

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='22 July 2010 - 04:40 PM' timestamp='1279831206' post='2146393']
A false premise? What false premise?


Simply because a right[i] [/i]is not enumerated in the Constitution does not mean that you do not [i]have [/i]that right. That is what the Ninth Amendment means. According to the "you don't have a right unless it is enumerated" misconception, no one has a "Constitutional right" to [i]get married [/i]or to have any specific number of children, or to own a dog or a book.

~Sternhauser
[/quote]
Saying that I have the right to fly is like saying I have the right to a BMW.
They are luxuries. No one has any right to a luxury.
[quote name='Lounge Daddy' date='22 July 2010 - 03:34 PM' timestamp='1279827263' post='2146371']
If this was something put into place by airlines, that would be cause for upset. But it is being put into place by the Federal Government, [url="http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/world/tsa-says-that-full-body-scans-will-now-be-mandatory_100335908.html"]and it will be enforced on all flights at all airports[/url].
[/quote]
That's more sensationalism. It will be put in place for all [i]commercial [/i]travellers at all [i]part 139[/i] airports. If you would like to fly general aviation or charter an aircraft - which, I might add, you have just as much of a "right" to - then you will happily find yourself free of any and all security measures.

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' date='22 July 2010 - 08:27 PM' timestamp='1279848424' post='2146502']
Saying that I have the right to fly is like saying I have the right to a BMW.
They are luxuries. No one has any right to a luxury.
[/quote]

When are you going to draw the line on these "security measures," USAirways? Will you even draw the line at mandatory cavity searches on children? Is it going to be, "If you don't want people looking at the naked outline of your 12-year old daughter, then she can get the purple glove treatment or else take the bus, because 'nobody has the right to fly?'" Because that's what's coming down the line, if you can't already see it.[i] [/i]

Someone having a right does not mean that someone else must provide a good or a service to you free of charge. You have the right to work, but that does not mean anyone in particular must give you any particular job. It means that no one can hinder or prevent you from finding or working at a decent job.

If you have the money to buy a BMW, you have every right to buy a BMW. No one has any right stick a gun to your head and say, "You have no right to buy that. I will do violence against you if you buy it, and it is moral for me to use the threat of violence to prevent you from buying it." No third party to the purchase has any right to say, "We are going to force you to submit to a full background check you before you buy this BMW, to make sure you aren't a criminal who might drive it into a school." There must be no prior restraint, period.

If you have the money to fly, you have every right to make a free contract with the air carrier to transport you. [i]Every [/i]right. You have the right to make any moral contract without fear of third parties butting in and using coercion against you. That right is denied, trampled, and violated, but it is nevertheless [i]your right[/i].

~Sternhauser

Edited July 23, 2010 by Sternhauser

[Archaeology cat]

This is very disturbing to me, especially since flying is really the only viable way for us to see family.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='22 July 2010 - 10:11 PM' timestamp='1279851111' post='2146522']
If you have the money to fly, you have every right to make a free contract with the air carrier to transport you. [i]Every [/i]right. You have the right to make any moral contract without fear of third parties butting in and using coercion against you. That right is denied, trampled, and violated, but it is nevertheless [i]your right[/i].

~Sternhauser
[/quote]
Sorry, Stern, I'm not going to continue this discussion with you. I like you as a person, but with your staunch anti-statism, there's no way that we'll ever come to any kind of middle ground on this.

A pleasant day to you, sir.

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' date='23 July 2010 - 01:27 PM' timestamp='1279909648' post='2146899']
Sorry, Stern, I'm not going to continue this discussion with you. I like you as a person, but with your staunch anti-statism, there's no way that we'll ever come to any kind of middle ground on this.

A pleasant day to you, sir.
[/quote]

I like you, too, USAirways. And you're right. There's nothing to discuss when aggressive force is involved. You'll merely force me to comply with the edicts of whoever you vote for. And there's no middle ground when people are forced to do something. There's the ground that people are standing on without harming other people, and there are the people who try to push them off that ground.

~Sternhauser

[Lounge Daddy]

Gosh, taking nekkid pictures is either violence or it is not violence. It doesn't make it ok just because the government is doing it. If anything, it makes it worse.

Strip-scanning [u]anyone[/u] terrible, draconian, and it is a police-state tactic.

See, this is the problem ... a lot of people would nod their heads and agree that legal doesn't equal moral. But in practice?

[ardillacid]

Don't fly