Is Faith A Gift

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='19 July 2010 - 11:10 PM' timestamp='1279595414' post='2145306']
"For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God." (Ephesians 2:8)
[/quote]

Yeah I know. Ive read this passage a couple times in the last few months. I think the gift that this verse is referring to is Salvation.

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='infinitelord1' date='22 July 2010 - 06:11 PM' timestamp='1279836662' post='2146430']
Yeah I know. Ive read this passage a couple times in the last few months. I think the gift that this verse is referring to is Salvation.
[/quote]

I like the idea that Faith is something that God reveals to us and is not something that we can achieve by works. Many of you seem to be pointing in this direction. However, it seems to me that if Faith is something that God reveals to us...then he must choose people in which to reveal it to...and furthermore, we are chosen by God (Predestined) and that we do not choose Salvation. Does this make any sense? What do you think?

[kafka]

[quote name='infinitelord1' date='22 July 2010 - 06:16 PM' timestamp='1279837011' post='2146432']
I like the idea that Faith is something that God reveals to us and is not something that we can achieve by works. Many of you seem to be pointing in this direction. However, it seems to me that if Faith is something that God reveals to us...then he must choose people in which to reveal it to...and furthermore, we are chosen by God (Predestined) and that we do not choose Salvation. Does this make any sense? What do you think?
[/quote]
Faith is sometimes used to describe the gift of Divine Revelation, e.g. Sacred Deposit of Faith. But this is distinct from the supernatural virtue of faith infused at Baptism with sanctifying grace. Sometimes Faith is also used to describe the one gift of sanctifying grace.

the initial gift of sanctifying grace is prevenient, prior to, any cooperation. It is undeserved and involves no merit, nor any act at all, on anyone's part. I think prevenient grace is given to every person, even persons in a state of mortal sin, without any cooperation or consent on the part of that person many times throughout life, but then the persons who lack the state of grace refuse subsequent grace given and so they remain in the state of mortal sin. So sanctifying grace is divided into two sub-types prevenient and subsequent:

Dei Verbum (n. 5)

5. "The obedience of faith" (Rom. 13:26; see 1:5; 2 Cor 10:5-6) "is to be given to God who reveals, an obedience [obedience is basically love] by which man commits his whole self freely to God, offering the full submission of intellect and will to God who reveals," (4) and freely assenting [or accepting] to the truth revealed by Him. To make this act of faith, the grace of God and the interior help of the Holy Spirit [sanctifying grace] must precede [prevenient grace] and assist [subsequent grace], moving the heart and turning it to God, opening the eyes of the mind and giving "joy and ease to everyone in assenting to the truth and believing it." (5) To bring about an ever deeper understanding of revelation the same Holy Spirit constantly brings faith to completion by His gifts [known as the seven gifts of the Holy Spirit described in the prophecy of Isaiah].

Predestination in my opinion is not related to the supernatural virtue of faith, or the state of sanctifying grace for God reveals Himself either explicitly or implicitly to everyone and He gives prevenient grace to everyone. I think predestination refers more to those who have been assumed into Heaven have always been there from the beginning of its Creation since Heaven is beyond all Time and Place since it is with God who is Eternity.

Those who die in the state of sanctifying grace will have eternal life.

edit: added Dei Verbum quote and clarified grace. Original post was crude and not unified.

Edited July 22, 2010 by kafka

[Apotheoun]

Predestination, among the Greek Fathers, concerns human nature, and not human persons. To put it another way, all of human nature has been predestined in Christ for ever-being (i.e., for eternal existence) through the incarnation, while whether a man is personally saved or damned remains in the power of his own free will in synergy with the uncreated divine energy.

[add]

[quote name='infinitelord1' date='19 July 2010 - 10:32 PM' timestamp='1279589535' post='2145204']
Is Faith a Gift?
[/quote]

Faith is not a gift, it cannot be

Faith is elusive and evasive; it can only be found, realized or discovered by looking for it.

Edited July 23, 2010 by apparently

[thessalonian]

[quote name='apparently' date='22 July 2010 - 10:05 PM' timestamp='1279850731' post='2146521']
Faith is not a gift, it cannot be

Faith is elusive and evasive; it can only be found, realized or discovered by looking for it.
[/quote]


The problem with your answer is it does not acknowledge the many other gifts that God has given us that bring us to the gift of faith. I.e. the gift of intellect, the desire for good, the desire to know our purpose, the desire to know truth, those in our lives who are a gift, those whom God sends us to help us on that journey, the wonders of nature that point us to faith and so much more. All of these are by grace and are a gift also. Without them we do not come to the gift of faith.

[kafka]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='22 July 2010 - 09:40 PM' timestamp='1279849255' post='2146509']
Predestination, among the Greek Fathers, concerns human nature, and not human persons. To put it another way, all of human nature has been predestined in Christ for ever-being (i.e., for eternal existence) through the incarnation, while whether a man is personally saved or damned remains in the power of his own free will in synergy with the uncreated divine energy.
[/quote]
interesting idea, perhaps the Greek Fathers had commented on Saint Paul in Romans, but I do not agree that whether a man is personally saved remains in the power of his own free will alone. That is too Pelagian. I know that is not what you meant.

What I had in mind is basically based on a few verses of Scripture in Revelation and in the Psalms and elsewhere about the Book of Life and summed up in the second paragraph of the newadvent.org article:

"Theology restricts the term to those Divine decrees which have reference to the supernatural end of rational beings, especially of man. Considering that not all men reach their supernatural end in heaven, but that many are eternally lost through their own fault, there must exist a twofold predestination: (a) one to heaven for all those who die in the state of grace; (b) one to the pains of hell for all those who depart in sin or under God's displeasure. However, according to present usages to which we shall adhere in the course of the article, it is better to call the latter decree the Divine "reprobation", so that the term predestination is reserved for the Divine decree of the happiness of the elect."

Revelation:
{20:12} And I saw the dead, great and small, standing in view of the throne. And books were opened. And another Book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged by those things that had been written in the books, according to their works.

This verse describes the general resurrection and the general judgment. There are two books described. The two books are symbolic of Heaven and Hell. Books opening means the souls in Heaven and Hell are emptied and reunited with their resurrected bodies. The Book of Life is the assumed persons of Heaven and all their good works shining in their bodies and souls. The predestined are in the Book of Life because they are already in Heaven.

{20:13} And the sea gave up the dead who were in it. And death and Hell gave up their dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works

The Sea is a symbol of Purgatory. Some will still be in Purgatory up to the general resurrection and general judgment. They are written in the Book of Life since they died in the state of sanctifying grace and will be assumed in the New Heaven.

{20:14} And Hell and death were cast into the pool of fire. This is the second death.
{20:15} And whoever was not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the pool of fire.

I think that predestination is something like those who will be assumed into Heaven are already there as a result of the Timeless and Placeless quality of Heaven which is with God who is Eternity. Once one is in Heaven, he was always there before and beyond even the creation of the Universe since God created Heaven first and then the Universe. So all those who are in the Book of Life will be together forever and for all the events of history. Predetermined: one has already arrived at his end, and his end is a new beginning since it is with God beyond all Time and Place.

[Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam]

Isn't everything in life, every day of life, a gift?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='kafka' date='24 July 2010 - 07:02 PM' timestamp='1280019763' post='2147657']
interesting idea, perhaps the Greek Fathers had commented on Saint Paul in Romans, but I do not agree that whether a man is personally saved remains in the power of his own free will alone. That is too Pelagian. I know that is not what you meant.
[/quote]
The use of the word [i]synergy[/i] by its nature excludes the idea that anything is done [i]alone[/i]. No one is saved without willing it, and that includes both God and man willing that outcome. As a Catholic I reject any form of predestination at the hypostatic level.

[add]

when you do find faith hold on to it with both hands or it may slip away

[kafka]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='25 July 2010 - 04:17 AM' timestamp='1280045853' post='2147792']
The use of the word [i]synergy[/i] by its nature excludes the idea that anything is done [i]alone[/i]. No one is saved without willing it, and that includes both God and man willing that outcome. As a Catholic I reject any form of predestination at the hypostatic level.
[/quote]
sorry. I didnt understand those terms.

[kafka]

here is a verse one chapter twelve of the Book of Daniel mentioning the Book (of Life). There are many parallel themes and phrases between the prophecy of Daniel and Revelation. I think the Apostle John was influenced by the prophecy of Daniel and understoood that the events described in Daniel were the same ones he saw in his visions:

[1] But at that time shall Michael rise up, the great prince, who standeth for the children of thy people: and a time shall come such as never was from the time that nations began even until that time. And at that time shall thy people be saved, every one that shall be found written in the book.

my interpretation is that found written in the Book means something like already present in Heaven. Although one is assumed into Heaven from at a particular time and place, once one is assumed one is in Heaven forever from the beginning of its creation since there is no Time and Space in this transcendent realm with God. And so they are in a sense already at their destination before actually being assumed. So they will be spared of those particular sufferrings of the End Times.

Here is Aquanus' speculations about the Book of Life:

http://www.newadvent.org/summa/1024.htm
"Wherefore, strictly speaking, the book of life regards the life of glory." [Heaven]

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='kafka' date='25 July 2010 - 11:50 AM' timestamp='1280080250' post='2147874']
sorry. I didnt understand those terms.
[/quote]
It is okay, they are just Biblical terms. [i]Synergy[/i] is often translated in English Bibles as "co-workers" or as "co-operation" but those translations do not convey the full meaning of the term.

[add]

My children are a gift from GOD
My spouse and mother of my children are a gift from GOD
My faith is belief
My Belief is conviction of the truth

[kafka]

[quote name='apparently' date='25 July 2010 - 06:19 PM' timestamp='1280096355' post='2147984']
My faith is belief
My Belief is conviction of the truth
[/quote]
Yet your power to believe is effected by a direct act of God in you called grace which is free and unmerited gift initially prior to your act of faith. And those truths you believe are a free and gratuitous explicit or implicit revelations of God who is Truth and has revealed Himself by Deeds and Words throughout history.