Q About Modest Swimwear

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' date='19 July 2010 - 03:58 PM' timestamp='1279573127' post='2145086']
Don't you live in Europe? What are the opinions of practicing Catholics over there regarding co-ed showers and non-sexual nudity in general?
[/quote]

Since Hilde dodged this question (LOL) I thought I'd tell one story. The firm I worked for gained a new client, headquartered in Finland. So, although the account was mainly overseen by our associates in European offices, several Americans who would also be working on the account went to Finland for a meeting with the clients. They stayed in Finland several days, and the clients showed them around and introduced them to Finnish customs.

One Finnish custom is the sauna. And, apparently, the usual practice is that both men and women use the sauna at the same time and clothes are not worn. The U.S. associates were a bit squeamish about this. I supposed someone could have refused, but it would have been seen by their Finnish hosts as a breach of hospitality to refuse, so they went ahead and shared the sauna with both male and female clients. When in Rome, and all that. And, according to one U.S. associate I talked to afterwards, it was anything but sexual.

But, somehow to me, being naked in front of workmates would be even more uncomfortable than among friends or strangers. In the U.S. the rules against workplace harassment would make this kind of thing unthinkable. The firm I worked for was a human resources consulting firm, and rather conservative, so the sexual harassment rules were taken seriously and strictly enforced. And, personally, I wouldn't WANT to see most of my workmates naked.

I have no idea if any of my associates or any of the clients were practising Catholics. But, I think it is one example that what constitutes "modest behavior" does vary by culture and standard practice.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='IgnatiusofLoyola' date='19 July 2010 - 06:41 PM' timestamp='1279579261' post='2145136']
Since Hilde dodged this question (LOL) I thought I'd tell one story. The firm I worked for gained a new client, headquartered in Finland. So, although the account was mainly overseen by our associates in European offices, several Americans who would also be working on the account went to Finland for a meeting with the clients. They stayed in Finland several days, and the clients showed them around and introduced them to Finnish customs.
[/quote]
Here is something Hilde taught me not long ago.

Finland is not the same as Norway.

(Hilde will get it.)

[Hassan]

[quote name='Lil Red' date='19 July 2010 - 01:02 PM' timestamp='1279558959' post='2144885']
are you posting this to be inflammatory?

this is not what i'm talking about at all. there are modest one-piece swimsuits out there.
[/quote]


In all honesty, isn't that the logical conclusion that you and Adam's logic? Christianity doesn't require women only show their face and hands, but a one piece with a t-shirt still shows a lot of leg. Shouldn't they be wearing some knee length cover or something?

I think you all are being too uptight about this. As CS Lewis pointed out, modesty is relative to ones culture. A bikini isn't considered provocative or immodest in American culture anymore. The one pieces and t-shirts they will be wearing would have been considered scandalous a century ago. Now it's not big deal, like your average two-piece.

Just my opinion.

[Hilde]

[Maggyie]

[quote name='Lilllabettt' date='19 July 2010 - 03:21 PM' timestamp='1279563715' post='2144969']
Sunday before last I went to the beach wearing my Muslim swimsuit. Actually, I know hard core Jewish girls who wear them too.
(they're from [url="https://splas004.secure.omnis.com/store/images/uploads/model_photos.htm"]Splash Gear[/url])

Quite expensive. But totally safe in the water: not heavy, bulky or binding.
And not SO weird looking.

I had a surfer dude swim up to me and ask me where I got my suit, because he wanted to get some.

Bonus: Used a lot less sunscreen.
[/quote]

I knew you would post in this thread

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

[quote name='Lil Red' date='19 July 2010 - 12:30 PM' timestamp='1279560602' post='2144928']
well, supposedly porn and masturbation isn't an issue for girls either....just saying that just because you don't know about it doesn't mean it isn't an issue [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif[/img]
[/quote]

This reminded me of a funny story about Queen Victoria. When the UK passed its laws against homosexuality, Queen Victoria removed any references to lesbianism, because she didn't believe it was possible for a woman to feel attracted to another woman. So, lesbianism wasn't illegal. (BTW--I have no idea if the laws changed after Queen Victoria's death.)

Background Note: Queen Victoria was very much in love with her husband Prince Albert, and although we think of women of that time as being prudish and only enduring sex, on the day after her wedding, Queen Victoria wrote in her diary, "Happy! Happy! Happy!" After Prince Albert's death, she always wore black. Since we tend to think of women of that time as being prudish, I found it endearing and very human that Queen Victoria appeared to genuinely enjoy sex with her husband. (And, she had nine children with him.)

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='IgnatiusofLoyola' date='19 July 2010 - 06:41 PM' timestamp='1279579261' post='2145136']
Since Hilde dodged this question (LOL) I thought I'd tell one story. The firm I worked for gained a new client, headquartered in Finland. So, although the account was mainly overseen by our associates in European offices, several Americans who would also be working on the account went to Finland for a meeting with the clients. They stayed in Finland several days, and the clients showed them around and introduced them to Finnish customs.

One Finnish custom is the sauna. And, apparently, the usual practice is that both men and women use the sauna at the same time and clothes are not worn. The U.S. associates were a bit squeamish about this. I supposed someone could have refused, but it would have been seen by their Finnish hosts as a breach of hospitality to refuse, so they went ahead and shared the sauna with both male and female clients. When in Rome, and all that. And, according to one U.S. associate I talked to afterwards, it was anything but sexual.

But, somehow to me, being naked in front of workmates would be even more uncomfortable than among friends or strangers. In the U.S. the rules against workplace harassment would make this kind of thing unthinkable. The firm I worked for was a human resources consulting firm, and rather conservative, so the sexual harassment rules were taken seriously and strictly enforced. And, personally, I wouldn't WANT to see most of my workmates naked.

I have no idea if any of my associates or any of the clients were practising Catholics. But, I think it is one example that what constitutes "modest behavior" does vary by culture and standard practice.
[/quote]
I hear that in the practice of sauna, one is at least allowed to wear a towel.

[Hassan]

[quote name='CherieMadame' date='19 July 2010 - 01:15 PM' timestamp='1279559748' post='2144905']
This might be a bit much for the girls nowadays -

[img]http://www.generationaldynamics.com/ww2010/g070118b.jpg[/img]

But with a few alterations, they wouldn't be that bad!
[/quote]


Who is the floozy on the right tempting men to sin with her sultry forearms all exposed?

[CatherineM]

Glad my HBP medication keeps me out of saunas.

[CatherineM]

This was my dad's bathing suit.
[img]http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3350/3641791295_f3eca5631d_m.jpg[/img]

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' date='19 July 2010 - 05:46 PM' timestamp='1279579580' post='2145138']
Here is something Hilde taught me not long ago.

Finland is not the same as Norway.
[img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/teacher.gif[/img]
(Hilde will get it.)
[/quote]

Oh, I know that Finland is not Norway. I was just teasing Hilde.

In the thread, we were wondering what Europeans are like. And, a story about Finland was the only one I had.

Obviously there are huge differences among European cultures, so telling a story about Finland only says something about Finland, not about Norway, or any other European country. And, I would expect that, even among the Finnish, there are differences.

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

[quote name='CatherineM' date='19 July 2010 - 05:59 PM' timestamp='1279580398' post='2145150']
Glad my HBP medication keeps me out of saunas.
[/quote]

LOL. You read my mind. I was thinking the same thing--that I was glad my health issues would keep me from even having to contemplate sharing a sauna with my coworkers.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Terra Firma' date='19 July 2010 - 05:05 PM' timestamp='1279573543' post='2145091']
I agree that over-sexualization has crept into our Western culture in the past 50 years. There are a number of reasons for that, sociologically, and there is no quick fix for it. I believe that God's grace can have a redemptive effect on any society, even ours ... but we must be open to receiving it. Until that time, we who are aware of the dissonance must protect ourselves from sin as best we can. In my opinion, that means being aware of how people could wrongfully view my body, and being modest in all situations.

I understand you don't share that opinion, and that's fine. If you do decide that you want to go skinny-dipping with your buddies after a long hot day in the fields to wash off the sweat, I'll know that it is in no way sexual.
[/quote]
I wasn't trying to downgrade the virtue of modesty. My problem is with the notion that standards of modesty in dress must be the same around members of the same sex as in mixed company. That's contrary to how things have always been in civilization, as well as to common sense.

I'm just saying (to use an example) that I don't think same-sex locker rooms and showers in a gym are contrary to modesty, while I think co-ed locker rooms and showers would be. (Some would even argue against co-ed gyms, period, but that's another debate.)

[morostheos]

[quote name='Socrates' date='19 July 2010 - 10:02 PM' timestamp='1279587772' post='2145190']
I wasn't trying to downgrade the virtue of modesty. My problem is with the notion that standards of modesty in dress must be the same around members of the same sex as in mixed company. That's contrary to how things have always been in civilization, as well as to common sense.

I'm just saying (to use an example) that I don't think same-sex locker rooms and showers in a gym are contrary to modesty, while I think co-ed locker rooms and showers would be. (Some would even argue against co-ed gyms, period, but that's another debate.)
[/quote]

I think that modesty norms for guys and girls are a little different - I know at my high school the guy locker rooms had public showers and the girl locker rooms had individual stalls. I don't know if that's common, but I definitely know that all of my girl classmates were also very uncomfortable about public showers and we would often wear bathing suits if there were not stalls. I'm pretty sure that was never an issue for the guys. Of course, just because that's what the guys and the girls were comfortable with doesn't make it the best option. I would say for girls bathing suits in showers without stalls are a good guideline, but I can't really say for the guys.

[fides quarens intellectum]

Personally, I don't see why there need be a problem with guys (and even girls) wearing a t-shirt (as long as it is not white) to go swimming. In fact, I think it can be a very good witness. I was with a religious group that required all of their summer group kids, guys and girls, to wear a t-shirt on swimming trips. Other kids would naturally come up to them and ask them why they were covering, and kids tend to be really good at summing things up about the faith/modesty/etc when asked questions on the spot by their peers, if they've talked about why they are dressing that way beforehand. Of course, it did help that they all had on the same shirt, one that they had received at the beginning of the summer program, which I realize is probably too late for the DRE who began this thread.

As for the observation about some girls possibly only owning bikinis, swimsuits can certainly be found if the kids want to go. The group I was with was working with inner city kids whose parents had little money to spend, yet somehow, all of the girls were able to find a one-piece swimsuit. Also, I have noticed that when you do leave a window open, such as, "well, you should wear x type of swimsuit, but if you don't have one, then okay, here's what we'll do for you instead," the girls are probably going to be less likely to wear what you were shooting for. I don't think you can underestimate the importance of the group mentality with young girls - they want to wear what their friends are wearing - if Jenny is wearing a bikini anyway, since she can, then Susie is much more likely to wear her bikini than her one-piece. It may be helpful to include a sheet with pictures of suits that you find acceptable and flat out say other types (i.e. bikinis, open backs, thin straps, whatever you decide in the end) will not be allowed.

Just my opinions. I hope you guys have a wonderful trip.