Ziggamafu Posted July 19, 2010 Share Posted July 19, 2010 [quote name='IgnatiusofLoyola' date='19 July 2010 - 03:51 PM' timestamp='1279569091' post='2145037'] We also don't want to teach teenagers that their bodies are evil, or that sex, in the context of marriage is anything but a beautiful thing and a gift God gave us. [/quote] Post win. Perhaps the puritanical period of America paved the way toward the sexual idiocy of the '60s and the interest in Gnosticism today? The residual impact of "sex" being a dirt word and the human body being a distracting tool of the Devil? It is hard finding the right balance, but at least we know what we are guarding our children (and ourselves) against: the degradation of objectification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted July 19, 2010 Author Share Posted July 19, 2010 [quote name='Ziggamafu' date='19 July 2010 - 04:54 PM' timestamp='1279569273' post='2145040'] I remember the shower scene from Starship Troopers, which hypothesized co-ed showers in the distant future. And then there's the public school scene in Huxley's [i]Brave New World[/i]. I can't imagine the acceptance of co-ed nudity; I wonder how moral theologians reconcile modesty with nude art? Obviously it is acceptable, but does nude art (and the process of making it, often by means of nude models) shine light on modesty issues in other areas of society (e.g., public swimming and public bathing)? Weird to think about. Anyway, I do think that excessive prudishness actually increases the struggle to be chaste. [/quote] Co-ed showers (like co-ed bathrooms and floors) are of course a violation of chastity - a misuse of our sexuality. Huxley's point is how sex is no longer a Sacramental reality, a gift or self-donation of being, but a commodity to be controlled and used in a utilitarian fashion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ziggamafu Posted July 19, 2010 Share Posted July 19, 2010 [quote name='Brother Adam' date='19 July 2010 - 04:02 PM' timestamp='1279569772' post='2145046'] Co-ed showers (like co-ed bathrooms and floors) are of course a violation of chastity - a misuse of our sexuality. Huxley's point is how sex is no longer a Sacramental reality, a gift or self-donation of being, but a commodity to be controlled and used in a utilitarian fashion. [/quote] Haha. I hope I don't need to be clear, but just in case, I did not raise the examples as an endorsement of nudism or obviously scandalous practices. Also, check my edit and maybe follow suit on your quote of my post. And I completely agree with you. I was raising the examples in connection with the morally problematic situation of the artist in the context of chastity and modesty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BG45 Posted July 19, 2010 Share Posted July 19, 2010 My own problem at the beach is self image, I often wear a shirt because I feel too fat to appear without one. Even though I know appearing without one is unlikely to incite lust. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted July 19, 2010 Share Posted July 19, 2010 [quote name='Ziggamafu' date='19 July 2010 - 03:54 PM' timestamp='1279569273' post='2145040'] I remember the shower scene from [unnamed sci-fi movie], which hypothesized co-ed showers in the distant future. And then there's the public school scene in Huxley's [i]Brave New World[/i]. I can't imagine the acceptance of co-ed nudity.[/quote] I somehow ended up in a coed locker room type of thing twice while in Italy for WYD one time. Very, very bizarre experience. During that same trip I somehow ended up as the lone male on a bus full of young South American ladies which turned into the Castle Anthrax. But yeah, coed showers, bathrooms, locker rooms, any of that, is just wrong. I must leave it at that. Btw, in all of these instances the people involved were WYD2000 pilgrims, which makes it even weirder. I've actually got a lot of scandalous stories from that particular WYD but I must spare the poor people of phatmass. Europe can be... different. lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted July 19, 2010 Author Share Posted July 19, 2010 It can be easy to misunderstand intent when trying to communicate online of course - sorry. After further reflection, I do not think I am going to require men to wear shirts - I felt a bit weird putting that in there in the first place. The interesting thing is, I have talked to many nudists and have brought some closer to the Catholic faith, but they have taught me things as well. In a nudist resort no one cares that you are naked - it is simply not sexualized, but nudists hate the idea of a regular public beach because the clothing is often worn in such a way to highlight a persons sexuality (obviously there are problems with nudism, but point taken). Bikinis do just that - they draw attention to a persons sexual organs. I am going to retain the rule that you have to wear a shirt over a bikini, but other than that, use common sense and I will talk to teens on an individual basis if they are being immodest in dress or action. You can be fully clothed and very immodest at the same time in the way you act. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ziggamafu Posted July 19, 2010 Share Posted July 19, 2010 I just had the odd realization that I would be okay with my daughter wearing a "reasonable" (where I am the absolute dictator of reason) bikini, yet I would be opposed to her posing nude (or close to it) for a work of art. Huh. How can I feel comfortable with nude art if I'm not okay with the hypothetical idea of one of my daughters being involved in its creation? Also: regarding Europe and co-ed showers, just wow. Do European Catholics (I mean good ones) feel the way we do about co-ed showers or do they see us as being silly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted July 19, 2010 Share Posted July 19, 2010 [quote name='Brother Adam' date='19 July 2010 - 03:20 PM' timestamp='1279570807' post='2145057'] It can be easy to misunderstand intent when trying to communicate online of course - sorry. After further reflection, I do not think I am going to require men to wear shirts - I felt a bit weird putting that in there in the first place. The interesting thing is, I have talked to many nudists and have brought some closer to the Catholic faith, but they have taught me things as well. In a nudist resort no one cares that you are naked - it is simply not sexualized, but nudists hate the idea of a regular public beach because the clothing is often worn in such a way to highlight a persons sexuality (obviously there are problems with nudism, but point taken). Bikinis do just that - they draw attention to a persons sexual organs. I am going to retain the rule that you have to wear a shirt over a bikini, but other than that, use common sense and I will talk to teens on an individual basis if they are being immodest in dress or action. You can be fully clothed and very immodest at the same time in the way you act. [/quote] It feels to me that you're making the right call. I can't really justify that rationally, but in a phenomenological kind of way your choice resonates more strongly with me. The issue of modesty confuses the hell out of me, to be honest. The basics make perfect sense, but as soon as I start to wonder about specifics, I'm left with contradictory conclusions and lots of confusion. My personal approach is that if it feels immodest, it's probably immodest, and vice versa. This has the practical benefit of, for instance, I'm never going to be quibbling about whether or not I should button up that third button on my shirt on a hot day. If I feel comfortable and sufficiently modest, I can assume that I'm correct. My big problem with this is that I wonder if society in general has already desensitized me to the point where things that are "objectively immodest" don't show up on my radar. Maybe my laissez faire approach is just a product of a hypersexualized society that I'm subconsciously clinging to. Some things that we wear today in general, and girls'/womens' current fashions in particular would have scandalized Christendom throughout many parts of history. Were they right? I just don't know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cherie Posted July 19, 2010 Share Posted July 19, 2010 [quote name='Brother Adam' date='19 July 2010 - 04:20 PM' timestamp='1279570807' post='2145057'] It can be easy to misunderstand intent when trying to communicate online of course - sorry. After further reflection, I do not think I am going to require men to wear shirts - I felt a bit weird putting that in there in the first place. The interesting thing is, I have talked to many nudists and have brought some closer to the Catholic faith, but they have taught me things as well. In a nudist resort no one cares that you are naked - it is simply not sexualized, but nudists hate the idea of a regular public beach because the clothing is often worn in such a way to highlight a persons sexuality (obviously there are problems with nudism, but point taken). Bikinis do just that - they draw attention to a persons sexual organs. I am going to retain the rule that you have to wear a shirt over a bikini, but other than that, use common sense and I will talk to teens on an individual basis if they are being immodest in dress or action. You can be fully clothed and very immodest at the same time in the way you act. [/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted July 19, 2010 Author Share Posted July 19, 2010 (edited) [quote name='Ziggamafu' date='19 July 2010 - 05:22 PM' timestamp='1279570977' post='2145059'] I just had the odd realization that I would be okay with my daughter wearing a "reasonable" (where I am the absolute dictator of reason) bikini, yet I would be opposed to her posing nude (or close to it) for a work of art. Huh. How can I feel comfortable with nude art if I'm not okay with the hypothetical idea of one of my daughters being involved in its creation? Also: regarding Europe and co-ed showers, just wow. Do European Catholics (I mean good ones) feel the way we do about co-ed showers or do they see us as being silly? [/quote] I don't know. We know that there is a lot of nudity in Catholic art, but is any of the nudity from actual models? I have thought about this a bit because we have a art studio near by that now does nude art. Edited July 19, 2010 by Brother Adam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted July 19, 2010 Share Posted July 19, 2010 I think it is interesting that Dietrich von Hildebrand grew up around art, his dad being a celebrated sculptor for one thing, and he must have seen and appreciated a great deal of art which featured nude forms. And yet, when he was a teenager, his father one day called him to the studio where he said there was a nude woman of absolutely flawless beauty. He eagerly urged his son to come and enjoy this singular opportunity to look upon absolutely pristine and sublime feminine beauty (his father had no doubt seen hundreds of nude models so this was no joke). Dietrich's response was to firmly decline his father's invitation. Being dumbfounded he asked why it was that his son would forsake such an extraordinary vision, to which Dietrich explained that it was his resolution to gaze upon the nakedness of no woman other than his bride, that it was his future bride who would be his most sublime vision of feminine beauty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hilde Posted July 19, 2010 Share Posted July 19, 2010 lol @ this thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ziggamafu Posted July 19, 2010 Share Posted July 19, 2010 After thinking about the original issue a bit more, I might be even more inclined to say no tees for the girls either. Two reasons: 1. A bit of consideration led me to realize that a girl in a swimsuit and a tee-shirt will probably look like she's ONLY wearing a tee-shirt, and the tee could actually draw more attention to her chest than the swimsuit would have. I may actually be inclined to think that the tee-shirt could be more visually / mentally stimulating than a reasonable suit by itself. 2. The tee might indeed be a swim-hazard (and certainly would create drag, which makes swimming far less enjoyable). I think you should insist on a one-piece. If girls only have bikinis, then give them the address of the nearest re-sale shop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted July 19, 2010 Author Share Posted July 19, 2010 [quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='19 July 2010 - 05:52 PM' timestamp='1279572774' post='2145079'] I think it is interesting that Dietrich von Hildebrand grew up around art, his dad being a celebrated sculptor for one thing, and he must have seen and appreciated a great deal of art which featured nude forms. And yet, when he was a teenager, his father one day called him to the studio where he said there was a nude woman of absolutely flawless beauty. He eagerly urged his son to come and enjoy this singular opportunity to look upon absolutely pristine and sublime feminine beauty (his father had no doubt seen hundreds of nude models so this was no joke). Dietrich's response was to firmly decline his father's invitation. Being dumbfounded he asked why it was that his son would forsake such an extraordinary vision, to which Dietrich explained that it was his resolution to gaze upon the nakedness of no woman other than his bride, that it was his future bride who would be his most sublime vision of feminine beauty. [/quote] Great story, had never heard it before! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ziggamafu Posted July 19, 2010 Share Posted July 19, 2010 [quote name='Hilde' date='19 July 2010 - 04:55 PM' timestamp='1279572926' post='2145081'] lol @ this thread [/quote] Don't you live in Europe? What are the opinions of practicing Catholics over there regarding co-ed showers and non-sexual nudity in general? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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