Life And Death Moral Scenario

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='16 July 2010 - 02:08 PM' timestamp='1279246096' post='2143245']
Your statement is heretical, though I know you don't realize it is.

Are you really claiming that God can be pleased by a sinful act?

~Sternhauser
[/quote]

I don't think I inferred that he would be pleased about it. I won't argue the point there. But to sacrifice (selflessness) to save another is generally considered an act of good. Suicide is considered to be a sin, but to knowing put yourself in a situation where you will be killed, but you are doing it for the safety of another is not generally considered to be suicide and by the quotation it is definitely not a sin. God may not approve of sinful methods to achieve good, but surely he would give consideration to the objective and declare it not a sin or give absolution by means of consideration of the objective. I guess I am trying to say that God is very broad minded and is not going to operate by a narrow handbook of rules and regulations, he can give absolution by means other than remorse, confession if he sees fit. If he wants to say that an act because of its objective is not a sin then he can do that because he is God. He can do anything he wants and you can't stop him. LOL. As you've noted I'm not an authority on Church teaching and my points are debatable. But I do think it's worth debating them. I don't think it is heretical to make a point and then be pointed out that it is not church teaching. It would only be heretical if it were not accepted after being pointed out. How do we learn to ride a bike if we don't fall off... often?

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' date='15 July 2010 - 10:03 PM' timestamp='1279249439' post='2143278']
I don't think I inferred that he would be pleased about it. I won't argue the point there. But to sacrifice (selflessness) to save another is generally considered an act of good.[/quote]


The word "sacrifice" means, literally, "to make holy." One can't make a sin holy. Nor can one make oneself holy by sinning.

[quote] Suicide is considered to be a sin, but to knowing put yourself in a situation where you will be killed, but you are doing it for the safety of another is not generally considered to be suicide and by the quotation it is definitely not a sin.[/quote]

The main sin of suicide is despair.


[quote]God may not approve of sinful methods to achieve good, but surely he would give consideration to the objective and declare it not a sin or give absolution by means of consideration of the objective. I guess I am trying to say that God is very broad minded and is not going to operate by a narrow handbook of rules and regulations, he can give absolution by means other than remorse, confession if he sees fit. If he wants to say that an act because of its objective is not a sin then he can do that because he is God. He can do anything he wants and you can't stop him.[/quote]

Then what we're discussing is the sin of presumption of God's mercy, in addition to the sin of lying.


[quote]As you've noted I'm not an authority on Church teaching and my points are debatable. But I do think it's worth debating them. I don't think it is heretical to make a point and then be pointed out that it is not church teaching. It would only be heretical if it were not accepted after being pointed out. How do we learn to ride a bike if we don't fall off... often?
[/quote]

I think you might have misunderstood me. I didn't call you a heretic. I said the ideas you were proposing are heretical (officially condemned by the Catholic Church.) You would only be a heretic, as you pointed out, if you recognized that those ideas were actually contrary to the teaching of the Church and continued to steadfastly hold to them.

~Sternhauser

Edited July 16, 2010 by Sternhauser

[SaintOfVirtue]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='15 July 2010 - 03:53 PM' timestamp='1279234429' post='2143157']
So true.

However, emergency medicine to save someone's life should qualify across the board, right?
[/quote]

Sure depending on what "procedure" they claim will "save their life". I find this debate to be riddled with ambiguity. What some people say will save a life might fall under what another claims to be an unethical or immoral procedure i.e. abortion, euthanasia, etc.

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote name='MissScripture' date='15 July 2010 - 10:26 PM' timestamp='1279247161' post='2143260']
This doesn't really surprise me, since it has always seemed to me, in any class debate that I've ever been involved in, there is really very little listening done.
[/quote]

it's more that the point of showing ID or whatever, is for the most party irrelevant. as i said in my last post. the main point of the debate is 'does the ends justify the means'. it's not to get hung up on pointing out alterantives, or pointing out how the example is a bad one. that's why no one thought the point was worth going into further.

[MissScripture]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' date='16 July 2010 - 11:43 AM' timestamp='1279295028' post='2143429']
it's more that the point of showing ID or whatever, is for the most party irrelevant. as i said in my last post. the main point of the debate is 'does the ends justify the means'. it's not to get hung up on pointing out alterantives, or pointing out how the example is a bad one. that's why no one thought the point was worth going into further.
[/quote]
OR it's because they refused to realize that the world is not a hypothetical situation where you can manipulate the details to how you would like them to be when you don't really have a leg to stand on.

[Lilllabettt]

[quote name='CatherineM' date='14 July 2010 - 07:00 PM' timestamp='1279144841' post='2142725']
You can pre-pay some money on a credit card. You could take him to the nearest charity hospital or medical school hospital. You can also immediately demand the hospital's patient advocate. Having someone standing there watching, and demanding they treat their friend can also go a long way.

[/quote]


Good advice. Except NEVER NEVER NEVER pay medical bills with a credit card. NEVER. Negotiating with a hospital over a huge bill is WAY easier than negotiating with a credit card company. Late/non-payment to a hospital does not effect your credit report, nor do they charge huge interest rates. If you happen to go belly up, anything charged on your credit card counts as "consumer debt" which can make filing for bankruptcy more difficult.

If Benny is seriously injured, no one will bother to ask for insurance before starting care. ALL non-profit hospitals are required to provide charity care, both emergent and non emergent, to maintain their tax exempt status. There are other things to do besides lie.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='16 July 2010 - 03:30 PM' timestamp='1279251044' post='2143289']
The word "sacrifice" means, literally, "to make holy." One can't make a sin holy. Nor can one make oneself holy by sinning.
[/quote]
Yes, you are correct but 'sacrifice' also has a broader meaning which is what I was referring to.

'the surrender or destruction of something prized or desirable for the sake of something considered as having a higher or more pressing claim.' (Dictionary.com)

[quote]The main sin of suicide is despair. [/quote]

You wouldn't pheel dispair at losing you life even though you were doing it for an unselfish act?????


[quote]Then what we're discussing is the sin of presumption of God's mercy, in addition to the sin of lying.

[/quote]
Do you really see presumption of God's broad mindeness, compassion, flexibility, absolute love, 'no sin of yours is greater than my love for you', or what ever positive attribute that you can imagine as a sin????? I think he would be delighted at my presumptuousness!

[quote]I think you might have misunderstood me. I didn't call you a heretic. I said the ideas you were proposing are heretical (officially condemned by the Catholic Church.) You would only be a heretic, as you pointed out, if you recognized that those ideas were actually contrary to the teaching of the Church and continued to steadfastly hold to them.

~Sternhauser[/quote]

Throughout discussions on PM people have given references to Church teaching. I have found them to be instructive, even beautiful and poetic in their refelection of love and intelligence in their understanding of a loving, intelligent and compassionate creator. I would not refute any of them, they express my desires exactly. For me to write something that is heresy is something that I would think would be offensive to God. So naturally when someones suggests that I have done so, I find it somewhat disconcerting and a little offensive. So I would like them to give me a reference so that I can take immediate steps to correct any such event, which I am happy to do. But generally I have found that such things are more due to misunderstanding. Spiritual matters are very complex and require much discussion because either the person doesn't fully understand what the Church teaches or have used a vague and irrelevant text or I have not written clearly what I was intending and people have misunderstood or added other interpretations. I think a golden rule might be if what you think is out of love for you God and your neighbour then you can't go far wrong.
Back to the subject: I would think that if a person elected to let some-one die rather than commit a minor sin would not make God very happy. I'm pretty sure he would expect something better.
Answer this: You can sin by what you 'have failed to do.' as well as what you did. So if the choices are all sinnful to lesser or greater extents, what will you do????
It might have been interesting if 'TinyTherese' had made this thread a poll. so we could get an idea of what people think (very important!)

[jeffpugh]

In short: this "lesson" seems to be an Obamacare propaganda piece.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='Lilllabettt' date='16 July 2010 - 02:08 PM' timestamp='1279310909' post='2143582']
Good advice. Except NEVER NEVER NEVER pay medical bills with a credit card. NEVER. Negotiating with a hospital over a huge bill is WAY easier than negotiating with a credit card company. Late/non-payment to a hospital does not effect your credit report, nor do they charge huge interest rates. If you happen to go belly up, anything charged on your credit card counts as "consumer debt" which can make filing for bankruptcy more difficult.
[/quote]
Non-payment to a hospital does eventually affect your credit, since the hospital or other medical professionals will eventually turn unpaid bills over to collections agencies who will report it on your credit.

In our experience, hospitals frequently have programs to accommodate people who don't have insurance or who don't have adequate insurance. It's cheaper for them to get a percentage of what you owe than to write it off for pennies on the dollar by sending it to a collection agency, or to pursue you via lawsuit. You can negotiate.

[let_go_let_God]

The problem I see is that they moved Benny. It is far easier to get an ambulance there who can stabilize him on site. They can also start administering care that your friends cannot on site. By doing this his chances of survival are far better than moving him. By doing this as well, Benny gets immediate attention rather than potentially waiting even a moment for a doctor to do an initial assessment of the patient rather than diving right in.

God bless-
LGLG

[toledo_jesus]

[quote name='tinytherese' date='14 July 2010 - 06:39 PM' timestamp='1279143597' post='2142718']
This is a question I have to answer in my philosophy class for homework at a non-Catholic community college.

"You and a group of friends are in the woods when your friend Benny slips and falls off a cliff. Benny is badly hurt: his head is bleeding profusely and he is unconscious. Fortunately, Brad, Steve, and Tammy know how to get him into the truck without doing more damage. They are now prepared to drive Benny to the hospital. Before she takes off, however, Tammy says the following:

'We'll get Bennyn to the hospital, but those of you left here have an important decision to make. Benny has no insurance. In last week's [i]USA Today,[/i] an undercover team of investigators reported that because of costs, emergency patients without insurance often don't get the best care available. Since Steve has an insurance card, we are considering admitting Benny on it. The card doesn't have Steve's picture, so there is no way the hospital will know Benny isn't Steve before they treat him, and it is quite possible they will never know of the deception. Using the card could be the difference between Benny living and dying, but it is also insurance fraud, which is, of course, illegal. We don't know what to do, so we are going to leave the decision to you all. Talk about it with each other for about twenty minutes. Then vote on it."


Now I know that the ends do not justify the means, just as the Catechism says, but what else can I say about this? Can anyone think of any alternatives to the deception proposed?
[/quote]
Sorry Benny, if you lived I'd hate for you to go to jail. No hospital would turn him away for lack of insurance, and it would be a sorry doctor that didn't try his best to save the patient.
The USA Today report seems flawed somehow. Obviously doctors need to make these decisions about who gets care, but if you are near woods then I'm assuming this isn't an inner-city trauma ward and the doctor isn't going to have to play M*A*S*H*.

[BibleReader]

Sorry if I am stepping on an toes, I haven't time to read all three pages.

The way I see it, too many people focus on the big picture instead of what is actually at hand. We are to take each decision at face value. Each one is credited as either righteous or evil. Given each decision, what you choose, you need to weigh the options of that choice, not of the possible outcome. There are many reasons for this within the faith. You will find that most things within the Bible are commanded as either right or wrong by themselves, regardless of circumstances. There are exceptions to this, yes, but [i]most.[/i] Furthermore, we are told not to worry. We are to have faith that if we do as God commands then the rest should work out as He plans, and we should be okay with that.

Even from the secular point of view, you argue that you have a set of acquired moralities, and weather or not they're truth, you must abide by them for the sake of compromising yourself. The only reason for forsaking personal virtues or commitments is through finding that they were made under false pretenses. Then any reasoning you used to adapt your moral commitments are falsified.

You may also suggest a postulate proving the problems associated with lying. Then under the logic through the postulate you can say that if something is intrinsically wrong, then it would be wrong regardless of environmental factors.