Hip Hop In Mass

[flip]

you know, ive heard choirs used in secular terms. check out Polyphonic Spree. I attribute that to secular music. now do i think all choirs are secular? NO! yeah, i don't doubt that when people think hip hop they think of cash, money, and hoes. but do you? does anyone here at phatmass? should we base the amount of holiness in something by POP CULTURE???

if hip hop is so secular dust, why do you promote it as a form of worship/ ministry? see, we are taking a hold of what hip hop is and bringing it back to where it supposed to be! God is making our hip hop HOLY AND SACRED! We wish that upon our music. We pray for it. Our music is a sacrifice to God. and only God is worthy of a HOLY sacrifice.

When i think of hip hop, i think of sanctified music. Music that is pleasing to God. There is nothing on this earth that cannot me claimed for God and made holy. Becuase God created EVERYTHING, everything has the ability to be Holy and Sacred, becuase it came from the source of sacracy and holiness! HELLO!?!??! Man makes things with his creative power, thus mimicking God. Man has also profaned things in this world, no doubt... but that does not mean it is so far removed from God that He can't redeem the profane and transform it into sacred. That's what he does with us! And with all of our creations!

Bottom line: If you think all hip hop is secular, than the entire massmatics cd is secular and of this world. Which I argue, is not. It sounds like that "Catholic and Fantatical" guy would love what this has come to. Labeling Hip Hop as unredeemable and secular. We should not look at things as holy/secular but rather redeemed/in-need-of-redemption.




ohh yeah, kiel will you be confirmation sponsor?

Edited April 21, 2004 by flip

[CatholicCrusader]

[quote]i don't doubt that when people think hip hop they think of cash, money, and ho*s. but do you? does anyone here at phatmass[/quote]
(censored)

For one (at least), I CERTAINLY do see hip hop as just that: sin, sex, etc.

God bless.

[maydbyGOD]

[quote name='CatholicCrusader' date='Apr 21 2004, 04:42 PM'] (censored)

For one (at least), I CERTAINLY do see hip hop as just that: sin, sex, etc.

God bless. [/quote]
i am highly embarassed catholic crusader that we share the same faith... highly HIGHLY embarassed...

a disgrace to what our faith believes in..

love, patience, understanding, holiness of others, etc...

all i see (at least all that u let me see) is judgement, condemnation, condescending opinions...

so ashamed that you share the same faith as me...it's one thing to struggle with our vices, it's another thing to outright defend and continue in your pursuit of judging others.

Edited April 21, 2004 by maydbyGOD

[CatholicCrusader]

[quote]i am highly embarassed catholic crusader that we share the same faith... highly HIGHLY embarassed...

a disgrace to what our faith believes in..

love, patience, understanding, holiness of others, etc...

all i see (at least all that u let me see) is judgement, condemnation, condescending opinions...

so ashamed that you share the same faith as me...it's one thing to struggle with our vices, it's another thing to outright defend and continue in your pursuit of judging others. [/quote]

haha, I'm sorry...I COMPLTELY missed the part where I judged A PERSON. It's not a sin whatsoever to be critical of a "movement" (e.g. I am highly opposed to the heresies of the "charismatic" movement trying to infiltrate and destroy the Church). There is no sin in that; in fact, in being critical, I am merely pointing out flaws in a movement, ideology, etc. that poses itself as "Catholic," yet it is completely opposed necessarily in its nature to the Faith. By the way, I am sick of being accused of things that 1) I do not do 2) the accuser does not even know the definition of. Please learn or know what you are saying before you actually say it...

God bless.

[dUSt]

flip,

I agree with you for the most part about hip-hop having the ability to be sacred and holy. But it's irrelevant. The simple fact is, according to society, hip-hop is a profane form of secular music.

You want it in the mass? Change the way our society views hip-hop. It doesn't matter what you, I and other heads think--the mass is universal, so the music must be accepted as universally sacred.

[dUSt]

Okay. I've suspended CatholicCrusader for two weeks because of his continued lack of charity.

[Oik]

First, I agree with all of the points Dust has made. Do you guys really want an explantion, or are you just stuck on the whole Hip-Hop Mass idea? Do you want to be convinced?

Second, I think suspending CC was a little harsh. :ph34r:

[numbers]

i agree i think suspending Catholic crusader was a bit harsh too.....even though we dont agree with him i think the guy is entitled to his own opinion, and i dont see him saying anything harsh or mean to anybody.....thats just my 2 cents.....


and dust i saw u are needing beats....i am willing to produce for the aftermass compilatation.....and dont worry about the money its cool....just gimme a shout on my email if u guys are interested


peace and God bless

[flip]

[quote name='dUSt' date='Apr 21 2004, 06:18 PM'] flip,

I agree with you for the most part about hip-hop having the ability to be sacred and holy. But it's irrelevant. The simple fact is, according to society, hip-hop is a profane form of secular music.

You want it in the mass? Change the way our society views hip-hop. It doesn't matter what you, I and other heads think--the mass is universal, so the music must be accepted as universally sacred. [/quote]
hey you know, i agree. i do want to change what society thinks of it. I can only do that with God's help. Once we change that... here comes HIP HOP MASS! (jk)

But i do believe there is no such thing as "universally sacred" music. Nothing about the music in Mass communicates any sense of sacracy to me. Neither does the sacred German music. I CAN dig the African and Native American music/masses - If only i lived in Africa, or Oklahoma (HEAVEN FORBID AN OKIE!)But, if any of the part of the music is not universal to me, than it's not so universal, beacuse i am part of the universe.

honestly, i was quite suprised that this thread got so hot. i really didn't realize how left winged kids are here (that is NOT an insult, so don't take it that way). You guys have to realize.... I am an artist through and through, and pride myself on it.

i think we have all made good points. and what is the concensus?

1) most kids do not want hip hop in mass.
2) hip hop is dope and could be used to glorify/prepare for/ and honor God.
3) Society hates hip hop
4) That Catholic Crusader dude got punted for hating hip hop.
5) The Hip Hop Mass would only be successful with the following participants: Kiel, Flip, Apollo, InDeed, and maybe Miko. (Maybe if we twist Pontifex's arm, he would do it)
6) Flip can dance, and this dance is well liked by all
7) Flip might convert to ya'lls family. But you have to accept him (artsy and all)

any additions?

Edited April 22, 2004 by flip

[cmotherofpirl]

flip is cool beans

[Pontifex]

Flip,

Anytime you talk about the Mass and making changes or additions there is going to be energy and heat. haha. It is the most sacred and intimate time that we have with Jesus.

I really am opened minded about using different styles of music to worship God in the liturgy, and I do not think that the arguement; "we shouldn't use it because society doesn't except" works at all. Did Jesus only embrace what society accepted? God forbid! In fact it was very much the opposite.

I must say that I do not think that European style worship is the only one that should be embraced. We should explore ways in which to make the mass appealing to all and to bring others into the fold. I am not saying that having a Hip Hop Mass is the answer. However, if I have to sit and listen to electric guitars and drums at Mass then why I can't we have turntables and a nice beat? (It is just a thought.) Reverence and mystery is the Key.

Peace,

Fr. Pontifex

[CatholicCrusader2]

Father,

[quote]However, if I have to sit and listen to electric guitars and drums at Mass then why I can't we have turntables and a nice beat?[/quote]

According to Vatican II, these insturments are not allowed, correct?

[quote]63. In permitting and using musical instruments, the culture and traditions of individual peoples must be taken into account. However, those instruments which are, by common opinion and use, suitable for secular music only, are to be altogether prohibited from every liturgical celebration and from popular devotions.44[/quote] (from VI. Sacred Instrumental Music of Musicam Sacram, March 5, 1967)

Per Mariam.

[dUSt]

[quote name='Traditional' date='Apr 22 2004, 09:17 AM'] According to Vatican II, these insturments are not allowed, correct?

(from VI. Sacred Instrumental Music of Musicam Sacram, March 5, 1967)

Per Mariam. [/quote]
But then again... what about this:

[i]"[b]The use of other instruments may also be admitted in divine worship, given the decision and consent of the competent territorial authority[/b], provided that the instruments are suitable for sacred use, [b]or can be adapted to it[/b], that they are in keeping with the dignity of the temple, and truly contribute to the edification of the faithful." [Constitution on the Liturgy, Art. 120][/i]

Hip-hop is very adaptable. I think that I'd be able to produce music that is more sacred and reverent than what I hear in most masses I attend today. I think people might be mistaking my argument for being against only hip-hop. Not true. I'm against ALL music in the mass that doesn't exude a deep sense of holiness and reverence.

[Pontifex]

Traditional: I am not condoning electic guitars and such at Mass, but when I am invited to Preside at Teen Masses this is what I am forced to deal with.

Dust is correct that the language is pretty permissive of most instruments. When the documents are taken as a whole the major theme is reverence, respect, and the ability to communicate the transcendent.

Peace,

Fr. Pontifex

[flip]

i love my bretheren and my sister-ethren