Hip Hop In Mass

[dUSt]

Here's an excerpt from EWTN theologian expert Colin B Donovan regarding the use of modern musical instruments:

[i]"Are they forbidden? No letter of the law exists doing so. But this should not be the standard. Law is based on principles, and in the absence of a law good-willed people will apply the principles which are used in such cases. By such principles drums and electric guitars evoke secular, as opposed to religious, realities for most of us. Ergo, they are not perceived culturally as sacred instruments. That is what is important, not our taste, the aesthetics of the situation or any other."[/i]

So what he's saying is that music styles/instruments that are predominantly associated with the secular world are naturally not sacred. To be sacred is to be removed from the secular. We must fight to keep the mass sacred.

God bless.

[DemonSlayer]

Hip hop is def. innapropriate for Mass, especially the break dancing, in fact any type of litugical dance is inappropriate.
Just like Death Metal or HXC.

[flip]

I still feel that hip hop music would bring me closer (and does) to Christ. I also believe that if the mass music was changed from the boring hymns (which to me, do NOT put me an a somber mood, or convey any sense of sacracy) to hip hop, it would better prepare me for the presence of Christ.

I also believe I am not the only person on earth that thinks this way. Would you agree with me?


I bet this is exactly what LifeTeen went through before it formed. But wait, they must protestants too... down with them for trying to reach the youth through Mass!

[flip]

[quote name='DemonSlayer' date='Apr 19 2004, 04:14 AM'] any type of litugical dance is inappropriate.
[/quote]
tell that to all the Catholic African churches.

or my Catholic High School.

Or the thousands of people who feel called to express themselves in prayer through dance. Read JP II's "letter to the artists" you will find that we (as artists) contain a certain divine quality that is unique to artists - the power to create and in that way more gracefully imitate God.

[dUSt]

I feel closer to God when I watch flip dance.

[follow_the_pelican]

me too, wait....can flip dance ?

[Pontifex]

I love Hip Hop Music, but the mass needs music that can lead people into praise and worship. It is a sacred time and it has music to help communicate what it is that we are doing. I also do not like the rock masses that exist either, but they have seemed to creep into our culture. Who knows?

I do think that the Sacred Mysteries need to remain mysterious and sacred. It transcends our culture and our modern forms of expression.

This is good discussion though Flip and I encourage you to pray for ways to use your creativity in worship and praise of God. There is room for that and it is needed.

Peace,

Fr. Pontifex

[numbers]

i agree with the people who are against hip hop in the Mass. The Mass is Sacred and there is a reason why the mass is like the way it is and not the other way around. im not gonna go into detail you guys have pretty much covered almost all the ground on why hip hop is not appropriate for the Mass. but hip hop is defintely not for the Mass. outside of mass, cool. but in the Mass hymns and instruments are appropriate in my opinion.

peace and God bless

[dUSt]

This is a story that came out today. Funny how the timing worked on this. Just substitute the word "polka" for "hip-hop".

[b]Polka Masses[/b]
[i]And More on the Rite of Confirmation [/i]

[b]ROME, APRIL 20, 2004 (Zenit.org).- [/b]Answered by Father Edward McNamara, professor of liturgy at the Regina Apostolorum Pontifical Athenaeum.

[color=red]Q: This past summer, my parish had a Polka Mass. I didn't feel it was right to go to this Mass, since I don't know how I would be able to associate Polka music with anything other than dancing. Isn't the music at Mass supposed to elevate one's spirit to God? Does a polka do that? And is that a legitimate form of liturgical music? -- T.L., Johnstown, Pennsylvania [/color]

[color=green]A: We have dealt previously with the general principles involved in liturgical music (see ([url="http://www.zenit.org/english/visualizza.phtml?sid=44370"]Nov 11[/url] and [url="http://www.zenit.org/english/visualizza.phtml?sid=46699"]Dec 23[/url]). From those I believe that it is fairly clear that music usually associated with dancing or other profane activities (at least in a Western context) should not be admitted into the Mass.

I was rather surprised to hear that Polka Masses were still going on -- I had thought that they had gone out in the '70s along with a host of other similar fads.

[b]Perhaps the principal difficulty with such things is not so much the music in itself, which like many human elements in the liturgy may have different meanings in different cultures and in different epochs, but the idea that the Mass needs some sort of a theme in order to enhance its significance or relevance. [/b]

When we label the Mass we tend to diminish rather than augment its importance. We [b]restrict its universal meaning [/b]as Christ's very sacrifice renewed upon the altar and the sacred banquet which forms and increases our union as part of Christ's Mystical Body, the Church.

This is the Church's greatest offering to God and any addition to the Mass itself -- such as "Polka," "Clown," "Disco" (yes, there have been cases) or any similar extraneous element -- reduces its scope and attempts to press it into service for some cause other than the worship of God.

It could be argued that this is done in order to make the Mass more attractive or welcoming to certain groups. I am certain that it is often done in good faith. Yet, I think that 40 years after the Second Vatican Council it is clear that such attempts have failed to fulfill their promises.

The best and most efficacious means of making the Mass meaningful is to teach Catholic truth as to what the Mass is.

[b]To understand the Mass is to grasp the foundation of every other aspect of the Catholic faith as well as to find the strength to live it.[/b]

No amount of toying with externals can substitute for a lack of knowledge of the essentials although, when carried out with beauty and fidelity, these externals can prove to be a resource for teaching and confirming the faith in the essentials.

What I term labeling of the Mass, however, should not be confused with legitimate practices such as, for example, when an immigrant group celebrates Mass in their own language and using music from their religious tradition, or when different styles of liturgical music are adopted in accordance with the various congregation's spiritual sensibilities.

Nor does it include the proper use of the many possibilities offered in the missal to adapt the Mass texts to particular situations, such as the use of votive Masses and Masses for Special Necessities such as "For Peace," "For Christian Unity," etc.

These texts serve to specify particular intentions and invocations which the Church, albeit in general terms, already implores from God, in every Mass.

-------------------------[/color]

There. Now if you don't like reading what I have to say, you can read what Father Edward McNamara, professor of liturgy at the Regina Apostolorum Pontifical Athenaeum, has to say. lol

I love fried twinkies.

[maydbyGOD]

[quote name='dUSt' date='Apr 21 2004, 12:28 AM']
What I term labeling of the Mass, however, should not be confused with legitimate practices such as, for example, when an immigrant group celebrates Mass in their own language and using music from their religious tradition, or when different styles of liturgical music are adopted in accordance with the various congregation's spiritual sensibilities.

[/quote]
reading his explanation up to this point made me believe that he definitely said no hip hop in mass... now i feel like flip and any other advocate of hiphop in mass can quote this paragraph.. LOL hahahahahahaha...

flip and mass hiphoppers 1, dustin siebart 0

totally kidding on the score thing hahahahahahahahah
i kID, I KID!

[point5]

heres how it would be sacred and able for all in attendence to participate and feel:

It would be set in a Church that resides in a community that lives in the culture of hip-hop ie inner city youth mass, and what not. We are not asking for hip-hop to become a world-wide standard for mass, not even as widespread as lifeteen...but why not in a select few areas that would acually realate to it, feel it, treat it as sacred preperation. Your Mom and Dad wouldnt come, unless for some reason that was a form of art that they loved and expressed themselves through.

The argument that you are not familiar with hip-hop so you could not participate in the worship does not work. Are you familiar with the worship services at Catholic African services? Hip-hop in a mass would only be directed toward an audience who understood it, related to it, and treated it as a sacred form of worship toward preparation for reciecving Christ in the flesch. One who does not understand hip-hop cannot rightful comment on whether it should be allowed or not...that is why we are going in circles. Just like I can't rightfully comment on the sacredness of Catholic African worship during mass.

Also I miss Pontifex so so so so so so so Much!!!!!!!!

[dUSt]

Even the inner city youth who live hip-hop still view hip-hop as secular. There's no way to get around that. [b]Hip-hop is a secular form of music[/b]. When something is secular, it is [b]not[/b] sacred. The mass must be completely removed from the secular.

In Africa, drums are traditionally used for sacred things--that is why they are allowed--because in that culture, it is not associated with the secular. Until hip-hop is no longer associated with the secular, we cannot use it for the sacred mass.

[point5]

" By such principles drums and electric guitars evoke secular, as opposed to religious, realities for most of us. Ergo, they are not perceived culturally as sacred instruments. That is what is important, not our taste, the aesthetics of the situation or any other."

by your reasoning as hip-hop being associated with secular then we now cannot use drums, bass guitars, etc in mass either for that would not be sacred as well. But WE DO!!!!

I realize if you had it your way all music would be out of mass...I would too. But untill that happens we can't descriminate on good old hip-hop. I have the feeling you will never agree...thats ok

I am not saying you need to feel that hip-hop should be allowed in mass...I'm saying, according to Catholic teaching, where does it state that hip-hop can not be used. How is it different from drums and guitar. Leave out all your biases or personal beliefs on whether it should be in mass or not. Just show me how logically it cannot be accepted but drums basses and electric guitars can...thanks

[dUSt]

[quote]"By such principles drums and electric guitars evoke secular, as opposed to religious, realities for most of us. Ergo, they are not perceived culturally as sacred instruments. That is what is important, not our taste, the aesthetics of the situation or any other."

by your reasoning as hip-hop being associated with secular then we now cannot use drums, bass guitars, etc in mass either for that would not be sacred as well.  But WE DO!!!![/quote]
You're quoting the guy from EWTN, not me. But Yes, I don't care for those instruments in mass either. Although, some modern instruments can be played in a way that don't evoke secular feelings. It's rare, but possible. I just think that it would be nearly impossible to play hip-hop in a way that would not evoke secular feelings.

[quote]I realize if you had it your way all music would be out of mass...I would too.  But untill that happens we can't descriminate on good old hip-hop. I have the feeling you will never agree...thats ok[/quote]
Well, although I enjoy silent masses, I think sacred music is a [b]very[/b] important part of the liturgy. Gregorian chants, a good choir, a classical organ... all of these are steeped in tradition and rarely used in secular forms of music, so evoke feelings of solemnity and sacredness, as opposed to the profane and secular.

[quote]I am not saying you need to feel that hip-hop should be allowed in mass...I'm saying, according to Catholic teaching, where does it state that hip-hop can not be used.[/quote]
I posted official stances from the Church above discouraging special forms of music in the mass.

[quote]How is it different from drums and guitar.  Leave out all your biases or personal beliefs on whether it should be in mass or not.  Just show me how logically it cannot be accepted but drums basses and electric guitars can...thanks[/quote]
It can't. That's why I don't think that drums and electric guitars should be in the mass. I think too many parishes are getting away with it without concerning themselves with the spiritual reasons why it shouldn't be allowed. The bishops who approve such things have the authority to do so, but I don't believe they have been encouraged by Rome. I live with it and accept it because I'm obedient to my bishop--doesn't mean I have to like it.

Fr McNamara: [i]"Liturgical melodies are there to assist prayer and should be distinctive in style and tone from worldly music. Their function is to elevate the spirit -- not set the foot tapping or the imagination rolling."[/i]

[dUSt]

"The use of other instruments may also be admitted in divine worship, given the decision and consent of the competent territorial authority, provided that the instruments are suitable for sacred use, or can be adapted to it, that they are in keeping with the dignity of the temple, and truly contribute to the edification of the faithful."[Constitution on the Liturgy, Art. 120]

63. In permitting and using musical instruments, the culture and traditions of individual peoples must be taken into account. However, [b]those instruments which are, by common opinion and use, suitable for secular music only, are to be altogether prohibited from every liturgical celebration[/b] and from popular devotions.[a. Instruction of the S.C.R., 3 September 1958, n. 70]

Any musical instrument permitted in divine worship should be used in such a way that it meets the needs of the liturgical celebration, and is in the interests both of the beauty of worship and the edification of the faithful.

Taken from: [url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDWMUSIC.HTM"]http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDWMUSIC.HTM[/url]