Hip Hop In Mass

[dUSt]

[quote name='Jason' date='Apr 17 2004, 07:23 AM'] :scratch: Are you talking to the same Dust? I get two different messages here?

Please clear them up.
God Bless
Jason [/quote]
I was explaining to Flip that the only people who might be in the right state of mind to actually use hip-hop for the right reasons in a mass would be people who actually live it, can look at it as the artform it is, and who have a firm understanding of the theology of the Liturgy. I was trying to illustrate to him that the average person or teen who attended mass, or even the average hip-hopper that didn't have a firm understanding of the theology behind the mass, would not benefit from using hip-hop--and in fact, it would be more harmful than good.

Since there is no way to insure that everyone who attended a mass with hip-hop in it would be in the right state of mind theologically and spiritually, there is no way that we could advocate doing it.

Catholic hip-hoppers can tell me all day how it would benefit them, but I don't think they're looking at the big picture--the mass is not about us, and should be welcoming to ALL. If my grandma can't feel comfortable sitting at the Lord's table, then there's something wrong with that. There's something very wrong with that.

Hip-hop doesn't belong in the Liturgy.

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote name='dUSt' date='Apr 17 2004, 11:35 AM']I was explaining to Flip that the only people who might be in the right state of mind to actually use hip-hop for the right reasons in a mass would be people who actually live it, can look at it as the artform it is, and who have a firm understanding of the theology of the Liturgy. I was trying to illustrate to him that the average person or teen who attended mass, or even the average hip-hopper that didn't have a firm understanding of the theology behind the mass, would not benefit from using hip-hop--and in fact, it would be more harmful than good.

Since there is no way to insure that everyone who attended a mass with hip-hop in it would be in the right state of mind theologically and spiritually, there is no way that we could advocate doing it.

Catholic hip-hoppers can tell me all day how it would benefit them, but I don't think they're looking at the big picture--the mass is not about us, and should be welcoming to ALL. If my grandma can't feel comfortable sitting at the Lord's table, then there's something wrong with that. There's something very wrong with that.

Hip-hop doesn't belong in the Liturgy.[/quote]
Thank You dust

God Bless You
Jason

[inDEED]

[quote name='dUSt' date='Apr 17 2004, 09:35 AM'] Catholic hip-hoppers can tell me all day how it would benefit them, but I don't think they're looking at the big picture--the mass is not about us, and should be welcoming to ALL. If my grandma can't feel comfortable sitting at the Lord's table, then there's something wrong with that. There's something very wrong with that. [/quote]
See dUSt...

This is where you contradict your entire argument...

You're saying that the Mass is NOT about US but about Jesus Christ in the Sacrament...

However, you say that if your Grandma isn't "comfortable", then a certain form of music is "wrong".

Why is her comfort a priority while a "Catholic Hip Hopper"'s is not? She may feel comfortable with organs, chant, or a piano while someone who relates to the Hip Hop culture may feel comfortable with 2 turntables and a microphone.

You may FEEL that hip hop @ Mass is inappropriate. But it is certainly NOT "wrong".

I also understand how you feel about electric guitars, drums, and the like at Mass...but, I gotta tell you bro - the Mass is still the Mass with these instruments that God himself gave us to worship him.

While we would certainly like to feel comfortable at each Mass, our "comfort level" is of the LEAST priorities...

[flip]

[quote name='dUSt' date='Apr 17 2004, 10:35 AM'] If my grandma can't feel comfortable sitting at the Lord's table, then there's something wrong with that. There's something very wrong with that.

Hip-hop doesn't belong in the Liturgy. [/quote]
That's cool Dust. but what If I feel uncomfortable with the music currently in Mass,(Which you and I seem to have an agreement on)? What if it does, as I say, take me out of the Mass and hinders my communication with God? Is that an ok thing? becuase I communicate to God through different music, I should be able to expierence the Mass just as much as the grey haired ladies.

Think about it, would your grandma dig on the Lifeteen Mass? I think that the elderly generation would look upon the passion and the communicative power that the hip hop music has to my culture and respect that.

And your whole thing on hip hoppers that don't know theologically wht's going on and so forth. I hate to tell you, but most of the people in Catholic Mass have no idea what's actually going on. I've talked to countless "Catholics" who have been raised in the Church and currently attend Catholic Mass on sundays that don't even understand or believe in the Eucharist. Obviously you agree -"Converting Catholics to Catholicsm" - I mean, remember - you were Catholic you're whole life - were you in sound theological thought before that expierence in the protestant church? and didn't you go to Mass before that expierence? Maybe someone you didn't fully expierence the Mass because it was in a different language...

But what IF just maybe, someone brought the theological thought to you through this incredible medium we know as hip hop? It is possible that you could have grasped a clearer understanding of what Mass is, and therefore could have been reconciled years earlier (or maybe never needed to be reconciled in the first place)

I can gurantee you that if I went to a hip hop Mass 6 years ago, I would have gained a greater understanding of the Mass and theological thought becuase I would have been ABLE to understand it. Heck, I might have had a better mind state when the question came up: "Should I be Catholic or Protestant?"

Do I make any sense?

The reason why I am so passionate about this, Kiel. Is that I want to make sure that the Catholic church is able to meet as who I am. Aaccept me as who I am. And speak to me in my language. I do not want to be part of a Faith that wont reach out and transform culture.

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote name='inDEED' date='Apr 17 2004, 12:08 PM']See dUSt...

This is where you contradict your entire argument...

You're saying that the Mass is NOT about US but about Jesus Christ in the Sacrament...

However, you say that if your Grandma isn't "comfortable", then a certain form of music is "wrong".

Why is her comfort a priority while a "Catholic Hip Hopper"'s is not? She may feel comfortable with organs, chant, or a piano while someone who relates to the Hip Hop culture may feel comfortable with 2 turntables and a microphone.

You may FEEL that hip hop @ Mass is inappropriate. But it is certainly NOT "wrong".

I also understand how you feel about electric guitars, drums, and the like at Mass...but, I gotta tell you bro - the Mass is still the Mass with these instruments that God himself gave us to worship him.

While we would certainly like to feel comfortable at each Mass, our "comfort level" is of the LEAST priorities...[/quote]

Whats up indeed never meet you I'm Jason,

I got a question for you, say you want hip hop in Mass, The Holy Mass would be a show instead of worship which is due to God.

The attention is to be on Christ in the Holy Eucharist. Mass is not a show. Whenever you go to a Protestant service it is all about singing and getting loud and praising the Lord, there is nothing wrong with that when it is put in it's proper place.

I love hip hop but I love Jesus Christ in the Holy Eucharist A trillion times more. Christ is the focus at Holy Mass. It doesn't matter if your board it's not a show, it is about Jesus becoming one with us in the Holy Eucharist. Jesus Christ in the Eucharist is the focus there is no changing that.

Mass is not about fun or party time it is 100% worshiping God.

God Bless
Jason

[inDEED]

[quote name='Jason' date='Apr 17 2004, 10:24 AM']
Whats up indeed never meet you I'm Jason,

I got a question for you, say you want hip hop in Mass... [/quote]
Whatup bro...

Advice: Be careful when you attempt to quote people...

I never said I wanted hip hop in Mass...

My only intention with my post was not to call my local Church to celebrate Mass in Hip Hop...

My intention was to show how those who are opposed to it are contradicting their ENTIRE argument...

Peace...

[inDEED]

[quote name='Jason' date='Apr 17 2004, 10:24 AM']The Holy Mass would be a show instead of worship which is due to God.[/quote]

It seems like you only really know a certain aspect of Hip Hop culture...

[quote name='Jason' date='Apr 17 2004, 10:24 AM']The attention is to be on Christ in the Holy Eucharist. Mass is not a show. [/quote]

I agree completely.

[quote name='Jason' date='Apr 17 2004, 10:24 AM']Whenever you go to a Protestant service it is all about singing and getting loud and praising the Lord, there is nothing wrong with that when it is put in it's proper place.[/quote]

Dude...be careful with those remarks...have you ever been to a Methodist service? An Anglican service? A Lutheran service? Don't stereotype based off of a couple observations...

[quote name='Jason' date='Apr 17 2004, 10:24 AM']I love hip hop but I love Jesus Christ in the Holy Eucharist A trillion times more. Christ is the focus at Holy Mass. It doesn't matter if your board it's not a show, it is about Jesus becoming one with us in the Holy Eucharist. Jesus Christ in the Eucharist is the focus there is no changing that.

Mass is not about fun or party time it is 100% worshiping God.[/quote]

Once again - I agree...but like I said before - it seems as though you really only know a certain aspect of hip hop culture.

Maybe we, as Phatmass artists, have done a DISrespect in not educating people on this board what Hip Hop TRULY is...

I'll see if I can get some research together...

[Livin_the_MASS]

I'm not going to post anymore on this thread because I want it to remain charitable.

InDeed God Bless You man, but I'm sorry I can't agree on this. Jesus Christ is the Focus in the Holy Eucharist.

If anything we should be worshipping Him in silence at Holy Mass.

It is a miracle on earth, His kingdom on earth, It's the Lords Day a day of meditation, prayer, and silence.

God speaks to us in the our inmost heart of hearts, we need silence to hear Him.

I love hip hop in my SPARE time to keep my mind on God while enjoying something I like.

You guys can reach alot of souls Outside the Mass to bring them in!

I would never change my point of veiw on the way Holy Mass should be though!

May the peace of Christ be with you InDeed!

God Bless you man
Jason

Edited April 17, 2004 by Jason

[maydbyGOD]

alright,

here's my piece on this entire matter

it seems that *at first* we need hip hop to be used to bring in the "typical urban youth" who are (correct me if i am wrong)
1) lukewarm in their faith
2) love hip hops
3) WOULD ONLY GO TO MASS IF HIP HOP WAS AVAILABLE

i believe, IF ANY, ANY SINGLE ONE OF US did not meet ALL THREE criteria, then we should not VOUCH for a HIP HOP MASS for ourselves...

do you get it... i've seen arguments swaying back and forth... 1) we need a hip hop mass to reach out to urban youth who are lost sheep if hip hop is what it takes to bring them in (correct?!?) but if WE ALREADY HAVE A PROFOUND LOVE FOR GOD, THEN we SHOULDNT *NEED* a HIP HOP MASS FOR OURSELVES...

i wouldnt understand having a hip hop mass if
1) all participants in the mass were IN LOVE WITH GOD ALREADY
2) EVEN IF THEY ONLY SPOKE IN A HIP HOP LANGUAGE

so the idea of having a hip hop mass with only the following people
1) dust
2) flip
3) kiel
4) Fr Pontifex
5) any other phatmass artists IN ATTENDANCE

doesn't fly with me

HOWEVER... if it was specifically for people who needed hip hop in the mass to understand it, then im ok with it..

yes, hip hop meets no boundaries,
but an unconditional love also meets no boundaries

Edited April 17, 2004 by maydbyGOD

[inDEED]

I love your body, Miko.

[flip]

hey miko.

good stuff.


but - do you think that you could get closer to God and be prepared for the Eucharist through Hip Hop music? maybe/ maybe not. wouldn't it be dope to try? Personally, i think that it would help me in preparing my heart for the presence of the Lord - better than the hyms that are sung now - which makes me want to rip my large intestine out with a spork (sorry for the embellishment, for humor only) but you understand... just wondering what you thought.

I saw the hip hop private attendance mass just as a "trial" to see if it would, as i am arguing, translate to us and prepare us for Him...

sidenote- what up with riverside, ca?

and Jason, dude. i htink you think that we hate God now. You can go to silent Mass fine. no one is stopping you. awesome for you. Mass is not a show. It is not a concert. I think we all know this...duh. you don't see the choir on stage being the main focus do you? ohhh, but you so see the lecter....so man. but i swear its still not a concert... we could do the hip hop in the back of the Church even. away from anyone's eyes... we would never have to step on the alter...

[Dflanni]

As a seminarian and future priest I think the idea of having hip-hop during Mass is just plain, old crazy. I think it is great that musicians are able to spread their love for Christ and the Church throught this form of music. But I believe that those who suggest that playing hip-hop during Mass need to evlauate and understand what the Mass is and what is happening during the Mass. We are at Calvary when we go to Mass and I do not think that hip-hop is appropriate music for the liturgy. We cannot just let people do whatever they want during the Mass, in this case playing a type of music that, though may be rewarding to some, may be a distraction to others. You must remember that we worship as the body of Christ and not all would like to hear hip-hop during the Mass. The mere thought of it makes me cringe and I do not think I could ever celebrate Mass under such circumstances.
One must remember why it is that we sing. We sing to give glory to God as a community. I am not too familiar with hip-hop, but I would imagine that if hip-hop were used during Mass that no all would be able to sing the lyrics and what not, maybe due to the speed of the lyrics and other such factors. In all, I think there is a time and place for hip-hop and do not agree that the celecration of the Mass is one of them. Most Catholics probably go to Mass once a week on Sundays. This leaves one with the whole week to listen to hip-hop if they so like to. I think that people can get by just fine without having it played during the Mass.
It appears that people wish to make the Mass into something that makes them feel good, that is exciting. But, many fail to see that the Mass by itself is already exciting! We receive our Lord at Mass, we celebrate in thanksgiving with the angels and saints....how much more exciting can one get? One may say, "Well having hip-hop played would only add to the excitement". In response to this I would say that there are many things that might make the Mass more exciting, but it does not mean that we should use them as a form of worship. In all reality our feelings do not really matter when we are Mass. If one believes Mass is boring than I would invite them to learn more about it and pray for the grace to see the Mass for what it is. So, no in my opinion hip-hop should not be played during Mass.

[dUSt]

Thank you for your view Dflanni.

I think the pro hip-hop faction should try to explain to us how hip-hop can be considered sacred and solemn to all in attendance. Since Church documents clearly call for liturgical music to be sacred and solemn, this is what should be the focus... Can hip-hop be considered sacred and solemn to all who attend a mass? I don't think this could ever happen.

Sure, hip-hoppers might not feel comfortable with Gregorian chanting or organ music, but can they say that it is not sacred? Can they say that it is not solemn?

[dUSt]

[quote name='inDEED' date='Apr 17 2004, 11:08 AM'] However, you say that if your Grandma isn't "comfortable", then a certain form of music is "wrong".

Why is her comfort a priority while a "Catholic Hip Hopper"'s is not? She may feel comfortable with organs, chant, or a piano while someone who relates to the Hip Hop culture may feel comfortable with 2 turntables and a microphone. [/quote]
When I say "comfort", I say that in relation to what the Church teaches about the music being sacred and solemn. My grandma may not feel that hip-hop is sacred. Can a hip-hopper say that Gregorian chanting is not sacred? I'm not talking about "comfort" as in how well one likes the music.

[dUSt]

[quote]That's cool Dust. but what If I feel uncomfortable with the music currently in Mass,(Which you and I seem to have an agreement on)? What if it does, as I say, take me out of the Mass and hinders my communication with God? Is that an ok thing? becuase I communicate to God through different music, I should be able to expierence the Mass just as much as the grey haired ladies.[/quote]
Please see what I mean by "comfort" above.

[quote]And your whole thing on hip hoppers that don't know theologically wht's going on and so forth. I hate to tell you, but most of the people in Catholic Mass have no idea what's actually going on. I've talked to countless "Catholics" who have been raised in the Church and currently attend Catholic Mass on sundays  that don't even understand or believe in the Eucharist. Obviously you agree -"Converting Catholics to Catholicsm" - I mean, remember - you were Catholic you're whole life - were you in sound theological thought before that expierence in the protestant church? and didn't you go to Mass before that expierence? Maybe someone you didn't fully expierence the Mass because it was in a different language...[/quote]
You make my point perfectly. I had no idea what the mass was about growing up because the only kind of mass we ever attended was the modern wanna-be rock band choir "feel good" masses--you know, the masses that try to be "exciting" with "cool music"? That's exactly why I'm against infusing modern music in the ancient liturgy today.

[quote]But what IF just maybe, someone brought the theological thought to you through this incredible medium we know as hip hop? It is possible that you could have grasped a clearer understanding of what Mass is, and therefore could have been reconciled years earlier (or maybe never needed to be reconciled in the first place)[/quote]
It would have been awesome if I had hip-hop to explain the mass to me back then--and even better if I could have attended a mass where the focus was on the Eucharist instead of the music.

[quote]I can gurantee you that if I went to a hip hop Mass 6 years ago, I would have gained a greater understanding of the Mass and theological thought becuase I would have been ABLE to understand it. Heck, I might have had a better mind state when the question came up: "Should I be Catholic or Protestant?"[/quote]
The mass is not a time for catechesis--it's the Church's most powerful prayer. It's a sacrifice--it's Calvalry. We should be trying to get hip-hop into youth events, retreats, CCD class, etc... NOT the mass.

[quote]The reason why I am so passionate about this, Kiel. Is that I want to make sure that the Catholic church is able to meet as who I am. Aaccept me as who I am. And speak to me in my language. I do not want to be part of a Faith that wont reach out and transform culture.[/quote]
YOU need to change for the Church--not vice-versa. This is the fundamental difference between Catholicism and Protestantism. If you want the Church to change, and unwilling to change for the Church, you are [b]protest[/b]ing it. ie - [b]Protest[/b]ant.

Did Jesus go out of his way to conform to His apostles, or was it the other way around?

I love you.