Hip Hop In Mass

[point5]

I agree with everything you just quoted...but I don't see how one form of music is acceptable but one is not...when the lyrical content...mood...and everything else can be the same

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote name='point5' date='Apr 16 2004, 06:41 PM'] I agree with everything you just quoted...but I don't see how one form of music is acceptable but one is not...when the lyrical content...mood...and everything else can be the same [/quote]
The music at Holy Mass is not the main focus!

[b]Jesus Christ coming down on the altar IS THE FOCUS!!![/b]


You kinda get what I'm saying?

God Bless
Jason

[Apollo]

I love everyone on this board. Especially the hip-hoppers here. You all were the first to welcome me. The first to include me in the Phatmass crew. The first to make me feel a part of the Phatmass family.

However...I really agree with Kiel in that I am feeling both sides. I challenge you to go back and read the past 45 posts as a whole. I just did. PEOPLE ARE NOT LISTENING TO EACH OTHER. Listen to your family.

I agree with dUSt and Kiel that if the music takes away from the focus of the true presence of Christ in the Holy Eucharist...it should go. All music should go. Music can help so many others gain from it, but if it distracts from others' experiences...it should go. [b]It is the responsibility of the participant in Mass to focus on the Holy presence, not the music.[/b]

However...[b]IN CERTAIN SITUATIONS[/b]...as Kiel and Flip have been saying...for a group of inner city kids that only speak hip-hop (in which it would not detract from the focus at hand) and have a close attachment to it, what is wrong with including hip-hop music in Mass? If it brings them closer to the realization of Christ's body and blood...I say why keep that from them?

I say either music (as a whole, any genre) should be acceptable for Mass in some way, shape, or form in certain instances, or all music should be banned from Mass. Their is no logical middle ground.

God Bless the Hip-Hoppers AND the "Not Hip-Hoppers,"

Apollo

[point5]

Jason

I totally get what you are saying...it is not the focus...nor would I want it to be...but I envision it as something that prepares us for the focus...When I last went to Confession the Wed before Easter...the Church as a whole "examined their conscience" and repented together...as we read a little pamphlet the preist had prepared aloud. In meditating on our sins and reflecting on our lives as we prpare for the Eucharist...I feel that song can also help the community do that as a whole...without trying to "steal the show" if you will. Do you get what I am saying. I still feel like it should be an acceptable form of music...it is not meant to take away from the focus...but to strengthen our focus on just that.

That being said I prefer no music in mass...but if there is!!!!!!you cant exclude hip-hop

God Bless your heart
In love to all
-Kiel

[dUSt]

Well, I just thought of this, so maybe it's relevant. All the music in mass is meant for the congregation to sing along, if I'm not mistaken. In fact, if you've been to a mass with no music (like daily mass), you'll notice that the parts usually sung, are read in prayer form.

So... how would this relate to what we're talking about? I don't think it would be possible for the congragetion to actually "rap along" with a hip-hop song. What do y'all think?

Where's Fr Pontifex? We need his input.

[point5]

dust that is a very valid point...I do believe that something can be made as a refain...were the congregation could participate...also...rememver the congregation we are speaking of would be up for participating in a music that reflects their culture. Lets not put limits on this. I can think of a variety of ways in which the community can participate but I will spare you the time of reading them all. The refrain does not necessaryly have to be a rap...but maybe a prayer. It could be similar when we have singers sing verses and the congregation sing the refrain. I have also seen a few solo songs in my day which were beautiful.

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote name='dUSt' date='Apr 16 2004, 07:19 PM'] Well, I just thought of this, so maybe it's relevant. All the music in mass is meant for the congregation to sing along, if I'm not mistaken. In fact, if you've been to a mass with no music (like daily mass), you'll notice that the parts usually sung, are read in prayer form.

So... how would this relate to what we're talking about? I don't think it would be possible for the congragetion to actually "rap along" with a hip-hop song. What do y'all think?

Where's Fr Pontifex? We need his input. [/quote]
Ya would he answer this question?

God Bless
Jason

[dUSt]

Well, I think it'd be a good idea to read what the Church has to say regarding music. I've copied the section about music into this thread from the [url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/v2litur.htm"]Consitution of the Sacred Liturgy[/url]. Maybe we can all read it, give our interpretations, and continue the discussion...

[i][b]VI SACRED MUSIC [/b]

112. The musical tradition of the universal Church is a treasure of inestimable value, greater even than that of any other art. The main reason for this pre-eminence is that, as sacred song united to the words, it forms a necessary or integral part of the solemn liturgy.

Holy Scripture, indeed, has bestowed praise upon sacred song (42), and the same may be said of the fathers of the Church and of the Roman pontiffs who in recent times, led by St. Pius X, have explained more precisely the ministerial function supplied by sacred music in the service of the Lord.

Therefore sacred music is to be considered the more holy in proportion as it is more closely connected with the liturgical action, whether it adds delight to prayer, fosters unity of minds, or confers greater solemnity upon the sacred rites. But the Church approves of all forms of true art having the needed qualities, and admits them into divine worship.

Accordingly, the sacred Council, keeping to the norms and precepts of ecclesiastical tradition and discipline, and having regard to the purpose of sacred music, which is the glory of God and the sanctification of the faithful, decrees as follows.

113. Liturgical worship is given a more noble form when the divine offices are celebrated solemnly in song, with the assistance of sacred ministers and the active participation of the people.

As regards the language to be used, the provisions of Art. 36 are to be observed; for the Mass, Art. 54; for the sacraments, Art. 63; for the divine office. Art. 101.

114. The treasure of sacred music is to be preserved and fostered with great care. Choirs must be diligently promoted, especially in cathedral churches; but bishops and other pastors of souls must be at pains to ensure that, whenever the sacred action is to be celebrated with song, the whole body of the faithful may be able to contribute that active participation which is rightly theirs, as laid down in Art. 28 and 30.

115. Great importance is to be attached to the teaching and practice of music in seminaries, in the novitiates and houses of study of religious of both sexes, and also in other Catholic institutions and schools. To impart this instruction, teachers are to be carefully trained and put in charge of the teaching of sacred music.

It is desirable also to found higher institutes of sacred music whenever this can be done.

Composers and singers, especially boys, must also be given a genuine liturgical training.

116. The Church acknowledges Gregorian chant as specially suited to the Roman liturgy: therefore, other things being equal, it should be given pride of place in liturgical services.

But other kinds of sacred music, especially polyphony, are by no means excluded from liturgical celebrations, so long as they accord with the spirit of the liturgical action, as laid down in Art. 30.

117. The typical edition of the books of Gregorian chant is to be completed; and a more critical edition is to be prepared of those books already published since the restoration by St. Pius X.

It is desirable also that an edition be prepared containing simpler melodies, for use in small churches.

118. Religious singing by the people is to be intelligently fostered so that in devotions and sacred exercises, as also during liturgical services, the voices of the faithful may ring out according to the norms and requirements of the rubrics.

119. In certain parts of the world, especially mission lands, there are peoples who have their own musical traditions, and these play a great part in their religious and social life. For this reason due importance is to be attached to their music, and a suitable place is to be given to it, not only in forming their attitude toward religion, but also in adapting worship to their native genius, as indicated in Art. 39 and 40.

Therefore, when missionaries are being given training in music, every effort should be made to see that they become competent in promoting the traditional music of these peoples, both in schools and in sacred services, as far as may be practicable.

120. In the Latin Church the pipe organ is to be held in high esteem, for it is the traditional musical instrument which adds a wonderful splendor to the Church's ceremonies and powerfully lifts up man's mind to God and to higher things.

But other instruments also may be admitted for use in divine worship, with the knowledge and consent of the competent territorial authority, as laid down in Art. 22, 52, 37, and 40. This may be done, however, only on condition that the instruments are suitable, or can be made suitable, for sacred use, accord with the dignity of the temple, and truly contribute to the edification of the faithful.

121. Composers, filled with the Christian spirit, should feel that their vocation is to cultivate sacred music and increase its store of treasures.

Let them produce compositions which have the qualities proper to genuine sacred music, not confining themselves to works which can be sung only by large choirs, but providing also for the needs of small choirs and for the active participation of the entire assembly of the faithful.

The texts intended to be sung must always be in conformity with Catholic doctrine; indeed they should be drawn chiefly from holy scripture and from liturgical sources.[/i]

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote name='dUSt' date='Apr 16 2004, 07:33 PM']Well, I think it'd be a good idea to read what the Church has to say regarding music. I've copied the section about music into this thread from the [url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/v2litur.htm"]Consitution of the Sacred Liturgy[/url]. Maybe we can all read it, give our interpretations, and continue the discussion...

[i][b]VI SACRED MUSIC [/b]

112. The musical tradition of the universal Church is a treasure of inestimable value, greater even than that of any other art. The main reason for this pre-eminence is that, as sacred song united to the words, it forms a necessary or integral part of the solemn liturgy.

Holy Scripture, indeed, has bestowed praise upon sacred song (42), and the same may be said of the fathers of the Church and of the Roman pontiffs who in recent times, led by St. Pius X, have explained more precisely the ministerial function supplied by sacred music in the service of the Lord.

Therefore sacred music is to be considered the more holy in proportion as it is more closely connected with the liturgical action, whether it adds delight to prayer, fosters unity of minds, or confers greater solemnity upon the sacred rites. But the Church approves of all forms of true art having the needed qualities, and admits them into divine worship.

Accordingly, the sacred Council, keeping to the norms and precepts of ecclesiastical tradition and discipline, and having regard to the purpose of sacred music, which is the glory of God and the sanctification of the faithful, decrees as follows.

113. Liturgical worship is given a more noble form when the divine offices are celebrated solemnly in song, with the assistance of sacred ministers and the active participation of the people.

As regards the language to be used, the provisions of Art. 36 are to be observed; for the Mass, Art. 54; for the sacraments, Art. 63; for the divine office. Art. 101.

114. The treasure of sacred music is to be preserved and fostered with great care. Choirs must be diligently promoted, especially in cathedral churches; but bishops and other pastors of souls must be at pains to ensure that, whenever the sacred action is to be celebrated with song, the whole body of the faithful may be able to contribute that active participation which is rightly theirs, as laid down in Art. 28 and 30.

115. Great importance is to be attached to the teaching and practice of music in seminaries, in the novitiates and houses of study of religious of both sexes, and also in other Catholic institutions and schools. To impart this instruction, teachers are to be carefully trained and put in charge of the teaching of sacred music.

It is desirable also to found higher institutes of sacred music whenever this can be done.

Composers and singers, especially boys, must also be given a genuine liturgical training.

116. The Church acknowledges Gregorian chant as specially suited to the Roman liturgy: therefore, other things being equal, it should be given pride of place in liturgical services.

But other kinds of sacred music, especially polyphony, are by no means excluded from liturgical celebrations, so long as they accord with the spirit of the liturgical action, as laid down in Art. 30.

117. The typical edition of the books of Gregorian chant is to be completed; and a more critical edition is to be prepared of those books already published since the restoration by St. Pius X.

It is desirable also that an edition be prepared containing simpler melodies, for use in small churches.

118. Religious singing by the people is to be intelligently fostered so that in devotions and sacred exercises, as also during liturgical services, the voices of the faithful may ring out according to the norms and requirements of the rubrics.

119. In certain parts of the world, especially mission lands, there are peoples who have their own musical traditions, and these play a great part in their religious and social life. For this reason due importance is to be attached to their music, and a suitable place is to be given to it, not only in forming their attitude toward religion, but also in adapting worship to their native genius, as indicated in Art. 39 and 40.

Therefore, when missionaries are being given training in music, every effort should be made to see that they become competent in promoting the traditional music of these peoples, both in schools and in sacred services, as far as may be practicable.

120. In the Latin Church the pipe organ is to be held in high esteem, for it is the traditional musical instrument which adds a wonderful splendor to the Church's ceremonies and powerfully lifts up man's mind to God and to higher things.

But other instruments also may be admitted for use in divine worship, with the knowledge and consent of the competent territorial authority, as laid down in Art. 22, 52, 37, and 40. This may be done, however, only on condition that the instruments are suitable, or can be made suitable, for sacred use, accord with the dignity of the temple, and truly contribute to the edification of the faithful.

121. Composers, filled with the Christian spirit, should feel that their vocation is to cultivate sacred music and increase its store of treasures.

Let them produce compositions which have the qualities proper to genuine sacred music, not confining themselves to works which can be sung only by large choirs, but providing also for the needs of small choirs and for the active participation of the entire assembly of the faithful.

The texts intended to be sung must always be in conformity with Catholic doctrine; indeed they should be drawn chiefly from holy scripture and from liturgical sources.[/i][/quote]
[quote]Accordingly, the sacred Council, keeping to the norms and precepts of ecclesiastical tradition and discipline, and having regard to the purpose of sacred music, which is the glory of God and the sanctification of the faithful, decrees as follows.[/quote]

I agree and believe with all my heart that the music must be Sacred!


[quote]115. Great importance is to be attached to the teaching and practice of music in seminaries, in the novitiates and houses of study of religious of both sexes, and also in other Catholic institutions and schools. To impart this instruction, teachers are to be carefully trained and put in charge of the teaching of sacred music.[/quote]

You can see here how Sacred and Holy the music is at Holy Mass by the care and the way it is taught down through the ages.


[quote]Let them produce compositions which have the qualities proper to genuine sacred music, not confining themselves to works which can be sung only by large choirs, but providing also for the needs of small choirs and for the active participation of the entire assembly of the faithful.[/quote]

The word Sacred again. It must be Sacred!

Don't get me wrong I love the idea of hip hop Outside the Mass, to bring people in the Mass.

Scott Hahn in his book the Lambs Supper points out some where that they worship the Lamb of God in silence.

God Bless
Jason

Edited April 17, 2004 by Jason

[follow_the_pelican]

FUN TIMES ! I am happy to see that the phatmass fam is functional.
we are able to discuss and debate a hot topic and yet mantain our sense of unity.
I dont think any one will ever come too and drop there case. This is my last post on this thread(unless it gets really hot). We all are trying to bring souls to Christ and therefore we bring honor to him;however, I don think it should get out of hand.
The point remains that unless the bishops come up with a new G.E.R.M. hip hop will not be a way of worship in our churches during the liturgy. I believe this is good, there is a time and a place for every thing. for those in the "urban" settings who speak and live hip hop, well I live in east "O". and though Omaha is a "smaller" city, we still have all the problems with gangs and such. I myself was an active member, till God ROCKED my world. I must say that of my"urban"Catholic friends, and myself, we would never want a hip hop mass.
Instead of giving them what they/we want. Teach them to look higher than them selves. Teach them of the awsomness of the mass, and explain that there is a time and a place for everything. And really, I think you are...well, thinking of these dudes as stupid!!!! Like we cant grasp the concept of the mystical body of Christ.
give it to us our language, we all speak ENGLISH here, dont we?
If we were to make a hip hop mass, what would be next? punk,ska,death metal?
a slippery slope...................peace be to you all in your persuit for the truth.

[Oik]

CC I think that you and others should undersatnd that while we must love and respect all priests, they are human beings. We must pray for them. To insult them is to insult Christ.

I also must say though that a specific and noticable spirit of hate that is indirectly instilled by some. Like the Judas of Christ's disciples, so some are today, abusing there authority in subtle ways.

For example, bad mouthing and condemnation. Just like Judas focused on the expensive perfume bottle Saint Mary Magdalene used to anoint Jesus, so do some focus on the wrong issue.

Again, I want to say we must never speak ill of priests and must continually pray for them.

[Theoketos]

[quote name='electricdisk' date='Apr 15 2004, 05:51 PM'] Dear God.

Please do not make my masses hip hop.

Amen.



I think mass should be reverent and holy. Remember when the priests had their back to the people? They were offering Christ (once again) to his Father in heaven, just like the priests in the Old Testament. Now that they are facing the congregation, we have somehow forgotten that point..
[/quote]
Amen Amen

But, the Priests are still offering Jesus to God, though the people can see this now...

[flip]

all this talk of Sacred. Hey, I totally agree. Music at Mass should be sacred. I am saying, along with Kiel and Paul, that Hip Hop can be sacred. God can transcend through hip hop and levitate it to a level that it worthy of Himself.

Dust- you love the unity. Awesome. but hey, go to an african Catholic church. or a viatnemese Catholic church, or a Black Gospel Catholic Church. I gurantee you, the Mass will reflect the culture.

No where in the CC does it say a specefic type of music should be in Mass. Just and adjective: Sacred. God can make any form of music sacred... Gospel, Spanish, Hip Hop, Gregorian Chant, Rock and Roll. I'm telling you. he can do that!

I talked toDust on the phone today. I will paraphrase him "Yeah. Hip Hop and Mass would be cool but the only people who it would speak to is me, you, Kiel, Paul, MC Just, Indeed, and others like us...and led by Fr. Pontifex..." That is EXACTLY what I am talking about. A Mass that reflects OUR culture, guys.

I DO want to set this up. I will produce all the music. If Fr. Pontifex and ya'll are down with it, we can set it up. and if we get pardoned by the Bishop... it'll be a fun experiment. I say we at least give it a try... God will be smiling at us like the Daddy He is. But of course, this is for the real hip hoppers.

[point5]

I think the only way I would be down with something like that is if Pontifex and the bishop were down as well... honestly I am not gonna push for it... because this issue does not bother me as much as it might Flip...which is fine. I personally am for no music at mass...but will argue for the acceptance of an art that has touched me and should not be segregated against. Im not even sure if this is something I want to see happen...although I feel that it should be alowed given that music is allowed at mass. Good luck to you Flip in your quest. It is odd to me that you are so passionate about this and want to do it when you are not even a member of the Catholic Church...that is a good thing I think...but still odd to me. Nevertheless you are an odd guy and that is what makes you dope and makes me love you.

-Moses the Black

[Livin_the_MASS]

(Flip talking to Dust)
[quote]I talked toDust on the phone today. I will paraphrase him "Yeah. Hip Hop and Mass would be cool but the only people who it would speak to is me, you, Kiel, Paul, MC Just, Indeed, and others like us...and led by Fr. Pontifex..." That is EXACTLY what I am talking about. A Mass that reflects OUR culture, guys.[/quote]


(Dust)
[quote]Hip-hop has no place in the mass. Before mass? Sure. After mass? Sure. During mass? No. If phatmass is ever used as any type of tool to introduce hip-hop into the liturgy, I will shut it down. Period.

I love hip-hop, but like Just said, the Sacred Liturgy takes priority. Any phatmass produced project in the future will have the following on the cover: Not To Be Used In The Liturgy

There are plenty of places to use hip-hop as a form of catechesis in the Church, like rallies, retreats, etc, etc. There's no need to try and change the Mass.

God bless. [/quote]


:scratch: Are you talking to the same Dust? I get two different messages here?

Please clear them up.
God Bless
Jason