Hip Hop In Mass

[CatholicCrusader]

[quote]there IS hip hop music that can make me revere God. I gurantee you, if i ever did a movie on the passion, i would have hip hop music playing...DURING THE CRUCIFIXION[/quote]

That is just absurd. I don't see at all how that could be considered reverent.

[quote]wow, you have alot to say on the matter. I agree when you say that God has no bounderies, He reads the heart. That is why we can say mass in our native tounge.[/quote]

That is actually a protestant idea--the Mass was always in Latin, yet when the protestant heresies began, many tried to say Mass in the vernacular, in order to degrade the Mass. Even Luther himself condemned such an absurd idea.

FLIP:

[quote]Catholic Crusader- i think you are expressing some hardcore naivity. get the pahtmass album and then talk to me. talk to Fr. Pontifex. he's a priest that raps (and as indeed pointed out, has rapped in mass). If you think God can't here the vernacular. cool. whatever. i don't think you worship the same God i do. My God knows no boundaries. My god hears my music and smiles. My God hears my music and it glorfies Him. My God hears my music and is REVERED. If your God doesn't like hip hop. cool. But you don't know your Daddy like the emcees of phatmass know Him. I'm called to worship and teach through hip hop and to the hip hop culture. Got a problem with that? cool. You go ahead and preach the Good Word to whoever you are called to. Just to let you know that I love you, ill write a rap song about you. [/quote]

I'm not going to get the "phatmass album"...call me close-minded if you like; however I refuse to be subjected to what I have come to realize (through direction from my Pastor as well as through logic) is at minimum an imperfection, or, as I see, sinful. I would never consider, for example, listening to something like "slipknot" or the like. No one, however, would call me close-minded for not doing so. Further, like I already said, I was in life teen for 2 years. I know all about that kind of music...and I despise it, so please do not call me "naive" to it... I have "given it a chance", and I have found the perfect "worship music"--Gregorian chant--the music used generatione et generotione in the Church (from generation to generation). To stand firm in the Tradition of the Church regarding music is to stand correct regarding music.

[quote]and as indeed pointed out, has rapped in mass[/quote]

I am hoping this is untrue, but if it is not, with all due respect to Father, Vatican II clearly stated that music that is purely secular cannot be permitted at Mass (if you want to go before him, Pius XI stated, at the beginning of the 20th century, that not even a piano can be in the church--only and organ).

[quote]If you think God can't here the vernacular. cool. whatever. i don't think you worship the same God i do[/quote]

I never said anything as ridiculous as that...I said that the vernacular shouldn't be used at Mass... that doesn't mean people can't PRIVATELY pray in the vernacular... even those here admit there is a different level of sacredness for the Mass, albeit they don't take it to the level they should. For example, most here agree that hip hop should not be used at Mass; however those same people agree that it can be used outside of Mass. You know my opinion is that it is never permitted (to listen to, even, let alone for prayer); however, you still must see the distinction between intra-ligurgical versus extra-liturgical reverence/prayer, even if it is distorted by the view that hip hop is OK.

God bless you.

[maydbyGOD]

Catholic Crusador

i am STILL calling you out


QUOTE ME BRO!!! bring it... :angry:

i remember you Catholic Crusador!!! Jesus talked about you in his parables in LUKE 18:10...

you were the pharisee who was praying next to the tax collector and giving himself propz while dawgin on the tax collector!!! :ph34r:

God bless [u]YOU!!![/u]

hollA if you feel me!!! hahahaha j/k

Edited April 16, 2004 by maydbyGOD

[maydbyGOD]

[quote name='CatholicCrusader' date='Apr 16 2004, 02:51 PM']

I am hoping this is untrue, but if it is not, with all due respect to Father, Vatican II clearly stated that music that is purely secular cannot be permitted at Mass (if you want to go before him, Pius XI stated, at the beginning of the 20th century, that not even a piano can be in the church--only and organ).



[/quote]
where is Fr Pontifex when you need him

[flip]

and dust...


you know what you were talking about. the huge phatmass conference idea? that all the hip hop acts would open up for the Eucharist?


well think about it: you will attract all kids from the hip hop culture to come. they will all sit there and sit through all the hip hop and love every minute of it. now, at the climax of the night- at the Glorious Mass- all the music is then replaced by an organ, a choir in robes, and a bell choir. WHAT!>!>!? that doesn't make much sense. you are saying, yes come and fellowship through this amazing music then saying - but this music doesn't REALLY belong to God... and doesn't belong in the presence of God. The kids would have a HUGE culture change to expierence the Mass. is this really what evangelism should be about?

Also, i might get this wrong, but don't we sing songs at the beginning of Mass, between each scripture reading, during communion, and finally at the end? I would argue that hip hop could be made to suit the mass. even take the boring, bland (yes that is what the hymns sound to me - my opinion) and re-perform them hip hop style.

at Mass on Easter, we sang "Lord of the Dance". This song was upbeat and very celtic sounding. This song was during communion! everybody seemed to have no problem with this. and you know what I have to do during Mass? during the songs, which bore me so much, I am in constant prayer asking God to speak to me in SPITE of the music. I feel the music taking me away from the presence of Him, and I have to fight to communicate with him. Seriously, does everyone in here really dig on all the hymns? if so, AWESOME! me personally, i would rather FEEL something (as Dust said, music is to suit the mood of the Mass) during the songs. I would rather have music to be a conduit for worship, expression, and reverence for God. The common music at mass does not do that - i hinders it for me. And I see it at Mass man, people barely singing along to the songs at half volume acting like it is the most boring thing in the world. Do you not see it in YOUR churches? it is actually suprising to me when I do find certain people using the music to worship Him- THAT SHOULD NOT SUPRISE ME - THAT IS WHAT THE MUSIC SHOULD BE DOING.

You even got the Crusader dude digging on Gregorian Chant (which didn't exist until the medival times, BTW). Well, more power to him! I hope he using those chants to bring him closer to God, revering him, and worshipping Him. and letting that set the mood for Him to recieve the Eucharist. If his church digs on it, awesome. Glory to God!

but what I am saying is this. I know I am a minority, but I want the Mass to speak to me. personally. through music that I can realte to and feel. I think there are many of us (and many lost souls) that would be broght closer to the Real Presence of God through Hip Hop. Yes. We are a minority. But that does not man that the Mass should not reach us, or our lost brothers and sisters. Black people are a minority yet there are black Catholic Churches with BLACK GOSPEL CHIORS! Spanish people are a minority - yet we have Spanish Masses with Spanish music. and Vietnemese people are a minority, yet we have Viatnemese Masses with Vietnemese music - and here's the shocker to you Dust - they are ALL AMERICANS! These are "sub-cultures".

My arguement still stands: Hip Hop can be used as a viable form of music for worship, expression, reverences, preperation, and honr to God.

[dUSt]

Crusader--you don't think the vernacular should be allowed in the mass, yet, the Church has made this the norm--therefore, you have shown us all that obedience to the current magisterium is not your priority. Even if I agreed with you about keeping hip-hop out of the liturgy, you've already lost all credibility with me. I'm sorry that you feel that you're a better Catholic than our current pope. I'll pray for you bro.

Kiel--please re-read what I said about exposing hip-hop to the [b]average[/b] teen. I know when I was that young, I enjoyed going to a mass that had the best music. Why? Because I enjoyed the music. I'm not speaking out of lack of experience. I never appreciated the mass for what it was--my opportunity to consume the Body and Blood of Christ. The modern music made me enjoy the mass more, yes, but not for the right reasons.

Think about it. Is the participation in Christ's sacrifice not good enough to get people to enjoy mass? Must we have "extras" to make the mass better? Do we need to come up with creative ways to get people to come? If so, this is telling me that the Eucharist is somehow not good enough, or lacking enough appeal. We shouldn't need anything else in the mass.

We need these things to initially draw people into the Church, I agree--but after they learn about the mass, and know why they participate in it, His Body and Blood is more powerful than anything we could ever do--and is more than efficient.

And if a flute leads people to not focus on His Sacrifice, I say remove it as well. I don't believe that the mass needs to change for people--people need to change for the mass. It's why I love the Church--it's Universal. I want to go to a mass in Dallas, in Rome, in Brazil, in Australia, and get the same experience--it's [b]unity[/b]. If we start changing the mass according to what's popular, we're no different than the hundreds of different denominations that exist today. That's how new Protestant Churches are started.

Please read Scott Hahn's "The Lamb's Supper" when you get a chance. We may have to just agree to disagree.

God bless.

[dUSt]

[quote]you know what you were talking about. the huge phatmass conference idea? that all the hip hop acts would open up for the Eucharist?[/quote]
Yeah. Matt Gill's idea, but a good one.

[quote]well think about it: you will attract all kids from the hip hop culture to come. they will all sit there and sit through all the hip hop and love every minute of it. now, at the climax of the night- at the Glorious Mass- all the music is then replaced by an organ, a choir in robes, and a bell choir. WHAT!>!>!? [/quote]
Exactly. That would be so dope. It would get them to realize that the mass is Sacred, Holy and superior to any kind of music we could come up with--that it doesn't need modern music--that it can stand on it's own for exactly what it is--[b]Christ's invitation to us to participate in His final sacrifice.[/b]

[quote]that doesn't make much sense. you are saying, yes come and fellowship through this amazing music then saying - but this music doesn't REALLY belong to God... and doesn't belong in the presence of God. The kids would have a HUGE culture change to expierence the Mass. is this really what evangelism should be about?[/quote]
That's where you misunderstand. That wouldn't be telling kids that hip-hop doesn't belong in the presence of God--we'd have been in His presence all day! What it [b]would[/b] tell them is that there's appropriate times to act one way, and appropriate times to act another. Just like you can dance and have fun at a wedding, but wouldn't be doing the same thing at a funeral. It would illustrate to them how the mass is heaven on earth, and worthy of our utmost respect and reverence.

[quote]Also, i might get this wrong, but don't we sing songs at the beginning of Mass, between each scripture reading, during communion, and finally at the end? I would argue that hip hop could be made to suit the mass. even take the boring, bland (yes that is what the hymns sound to me - my opinion) and re-perform them hip hop style.[/quote]
Song during the mass is a form of prayer. It shouldn't be considered music in that sense. If the music is the reason people are going to mass, then they don't understand why they're there.

[quote]at Mass on Easter, we sang "Lord of the Dance". This song was upbeat and very celtic sounding. This song was during communion! everybody seemed to have no problem with this. and you know what I have to do during Mass?... it is actually suprising to me when I do find certain people using the music to worship Him- THAT SHOULD NOT SUPRISE ME - THAT IS WHAT THE MUSIC SHOULD BE DOING.[/quote]
EXACTLY. That's why I don't like most music in mass nowadays. I'd actually prefer a mass with no music, than bad music.

[quote]My arguement still stands: Hip Hop can be used as a viable form of music for worship, expression, reverences, preperation, and honr to God.[/quote]
I agree. But I still say that if we put it into the liturgy of the mass, with all factors considered, it would do more harm than good--taking the attention off the real reason we should be there.

[follow_the_pelican]

Flip, dude, what are you doing buddy?

First, I hate writing all these long john e-mails;however, I do enjoy reading all the responses. Here is what the Catechism has to say:

"in conformity with the Church's norms, "the voices of the faithful may be heard." But "the texts intended to be sung must always be in conformity with Catholic doctrine. Indeed they should be drawn chiefly from the Sacred Scripture and from liturgical sources."


As it has been said, hip hop is a sub culture. And unless some one can come up with a "hip hop is o.k. for the mass" We have to be in"conformity with Catholic doctrine."

I THINK IT SAY'S IT ALL THERE!!!! What Bishop is going to be like; I am down wit yall on dis one homey? And unless the Bishop, the visible human presence of the church in your diocese is down with it, then it is a major NO NO.

C.C. what is going on in your head? like the dude's on the phurom have alrady said. Why are you being a hot dog head about this. Who are you trying to conivince?
even the psalms when put to a beat could be considered rap. The most beautiful poetry in the world, ever to be written is capable of being rap. So BUZZ of buddy!!!

Life teen, well yall know my opinion of that.

keep it cool

[electricdisk]

--man this is a hot topic....

[img]http://www.Electricdisk.com/ebay/chill2.jpg[/img]

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote]JASON-

I do disagree with your second response; however, I did not see it until just now, so I could not have replied to it in a timely manner. I made it clear (I thought) that I feel that hip hop is NEVER acceptable as it is tasteless and disedifying not only in lyrics (swearing, sex, etc) but even in so-called "Christian" hip hop, the medium over which the message is portrayed is in direct conflict with the message itself, for the medium is also tasteless and disedifying. As I said, my Pastor wrote a wonderful sermon on it. It is not yet on the website, but I think I will ask him tonight if I can make copies of it so to use the agruments (since they are not in sentences but it thoughts/outline format so as it would be fitting to be spoken and not read). Therefore, if I can gte him to let me make copies tonight ot tomorrow morning, I will get back to you with it. God bless. [/quote]

CC,

How can you disagree. I stand very very firm in leaving the Holy Mass exactly what it is called HOLY!

It is were Christ comes on the Altar Truly Present so that we may feed upon Him.
Mass is Preperation and Meditation and Prayer and Sacrifice and is very Holy.

What I am saying is that this music can reach alot of people OUTSIDE THE MASS!!

I think Dust even said that they will be doing a song that talks about how we are against Liturgical abuses. This is what else he says:

[quote][b]Hip-hop has no place in the mass.[/b] Before mass? Sure. After mass? Sure. [b]During mass? No.[/b] [b]If phatmass is ever used as any type of tool to introduce hip-hop into the liturgy, I will shut it down. Period.[/b]

I love hip-hop, [b]but like Just said, the Sacred Liturgy takes priority.[/b] [color=red]Any phatmass produced project in the future will have the following on the cover: Not To Be Used In The Liturgy[/color]
There are plenty of places to use hip-hop as a form of catechesis in the Church, like rallies, retreats, etc, etc. There's no need to try and change the Mass.

God bless. [/quote]

Bolds added by me.

There is nothing wrong with using music OUTSIDE the Mass to bring them into Mass.

The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is the Most Sacred Thing on this earth, if I thought that was going on (liturgical abuses) I would be out. But it's not I think CC the point is made clear that hip hop is used to bring people INTO THE MASS FROM THE OUTSIDE!!!

God Bless
Jason

Edited April 16, 2004 by Jason

[point5]

In all honesty I see both sides and somewhat agree with both sides. I myself enjoy going to daily mass where we have no singing and the focus and unity in the church is on one thing...and that is the sacrifice presented in the Divine Eucharist. It is almost breathtaking and something I enjoy going to.

On the other hand...since there IS music to be sang in mass and that is perfectly acceptable...I HONESTLY do not see why it is such an uproar for hip-hop to be an acceptable music to be present in Mass. Im sure it is not about lyrical content...because us gifted writers can write lyrics that conform to Catholic Doctrine... or reflect modern or ancient hymns sang presently at mass. I dont see how those texts presented from the catechism exclude hip-hop...hip-hop can conform to that which is an acceptable form of music for Mass. Ive also seen drums in mass...It was a little different...and it wasnt even a life teen mass...but that there, rules out that a hip-hop beat would not be acceptable...some people on these boards have no idea what hip-hop entails...go beyond the mainstream mtv radio stuff...flip can take a Catholic worship song...chop it up and make the same song hip-hop style.... I think that it is fine.

Once again..I dont see how we can segregate a style of music if that music is made Godly and also prepares people for the most important part...the Eucharist. Songs can get you ready and in the right mind to receive the greatest gift Christ gave the Church.

Edited April 16, 2004 by point5

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote]On the other hand...since there IS music to be sand in mass and that is perfectly acceptable...I HONESTLY do not see why it is such an uproar for hip-hop to be an acceptable music to be present in Mass.[/quote]

Because it is SACRED!!!

There is a time for play and a time to pray!

God Bless
Jason

[maydbyGOD]

i love point 5 and i think if both of them didnt have girlfriends, i would stalk them hahahahahahah JK

dUSt, my respect for you and your faith is of the utmost... ur love for our faith is contagious and i honor you for that...

[point5]

Jason

maybey you are one of the people that put boundaries and limitations on hip-hop...maybey you arent. But this art form is not always a time for playing and I would never want it in that form presented at mass. Hip-hop can be expressed in prayer...that is what I am trying to get across...you can't tell me that it is different that what we sing now.

In ancient times when the early church sang ancient hymns...those hymns envoked and sparked great emotion and initiated a prayerful attitude...hip-hop is the same but presently...for a select few of people...this is not a mass that I would want the majority or my parents or anyone else who does not understand the art to come to...not a spectacle...but something for true inner city and urban youth to participate in and prayerfully prepare them to receive the blessed sacrament.

[point5]

I personally am for no singing in mass... as I stated...when I atend daily mass their is no singing and I Love the sacredness of it...one who hasnt been wouldnt know...Im sure most of you do know and that is why you are passionate in your defense on this idea.

BUT if the church allows music that conforms to its teachings then why exclude hip-hop which can meet those standards!!!!

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote name='point5' date='Apr 16 2004, 06:12 PM']Jason

maybey you are one of the people that put boundaries and limitations on hip-hop...maybey you arent.  But this art form is not always a time for playing and I would never want it in that form presented at mass.  Hip-hop can be expressed in prayer...that is what I am trying to get across...you can't tell me that it is different that what we sing now.

In ancient times when the early church sang ancient hymns...those hymns envoked and sparked great emotion and initiated a prayerful attitude...hip-hop is the same but presently...for a select few of people...this is not a mass that I would want the majority or my parents or anyone else who does not understand the art to come to...not a spectacle...but something for true inner city and urban youth to participate in and prayerfully prepare them to receive the blessed sacrament.[/quote]
On the examination of Our conscience and on the firm purpose of amendment

"Imitation of Christ" by: Thomas A. Kempis

"Christ: 'Above all things, the priest of God should come to offer, handle and receive this Sacrament with great humility and reverence of heart, full of faith and the loving intention of giving honor to God. Examine your conscience carefully and to the best of your ability, cleanse and purifiy it by sincere contrition and a humble confession, so that you may not be aware of anything to fill you with remorse, or prevent your free approach to God.

"Be sorry for all your sins in general, and especially regret and have sorrow for your daily offences. If time permits, tell God --- in the secrecy of your heart--- all the miseries caused by your unruly passions.

"Be full of grief and lament that you are still attached to the flesh and the world, so unmoritified in your passions; so full of unsuppressed evil desires, so unguarded in your outward senses, so often engaged in useless imaginings; [b]so readily drawn to things outside, so neglectful of those within.[/b]

"Bewail the fact that you are so easily moved to laughter and frivolity, so slow to weep and repent; so slothful in austerity and fervor of spirit; so eager for news and to see nice things, so reluctant to welcome humiliations and contempt; so craving for possessions, so stingy in giving and so obstinate in retaining.

"Grieve that you are so thoughtless in speech, [b]so undisciplined in silence[/b]; so unmannerly in habit, so incnsiderate in action; so greedy for food, so deaf to the word of God; so quick to rest, so slow to work, so alert to gossip, so drowsy at holy vigils; so hasty to reach the end, so wandering in attention; so careless in prayer, so lukewarm at Mass, so lacking in fervor at Communion....."



It goes on further but I'll stop here, I think you get the point, The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is a time for silence, prayer and thanksgiving no if, ands or buts about it. It must stay Holy!!! When we recieve Jesus Truly Present He wants silence so He can speak to us.

God Bless
Jason