Hip Hop In Mass

[electricdisk]

[quote name='dUSt' date='Apr 15 2004, 09:21 PM'] If phatmass is ever used as any type of tool to introduce hip-hop into the liturgy, I will shut it down. Period.
[/quote]
Maybe when the AYBABTU (the Phatmass version) flash thingy could be shown during the collection?

===
Just Kidding.

Sure would be nice to revive the "Be Don't A Dope" photoshop collection of works though....hint...hint....

Think Sara could take a crack at it???

====
Betcha you are tired and worn out from the new little tyke. I feel for you.

[inDEED]

[quote name='dUSt' date='Apr 15 2004, 08:21 PM'] Hip-hop has no place in the mass. Before mass? Sure. After mass? Sure. During mass? No. If phatmass is ever used as any type of tool to introduce hip-hop into the liturgy, I will shut it down. Period.

I love hip-hop, but like Just said, the Sacred Liturgy takes priority. Any phatmass produced project in the future will have the following on the cover: [color=red][b]Not To Be Used In The Liturgy[/b][/color]

There are plenty of places to use hip-hop as a form of catechesis in the Church, like rallies, retreats, etc, etc. There's no need to try and change the Mass.

God bless. [/quote]
What about when Fr. Pontifex rapped his "Son Still Shines" track in his homily? Or when Miko did the same?

[maydbyGOD]

yeah i was about to say... i feel terrible about what i did... i truly genuinely felt uncomfortable about rapping during a mass... i wrote a rhyme called "the Prodigal Son" and the Gospel reading for that Sunday was the Prodigal Son...

i felt terrible and uncomfortable but i guess i was under obedience to the head chaplain/priest there at the Catholic Center.... i dunno...

[flip]

look guys.


all masses have certain cultural contexts and are adapted for the culture/language.

a spanish mass is IN SPANISH. with spanish influenced music.

what about African masses? since dance is such an expressive part of thier culture, they dance and sing in thier native tounge.

A russian mass is in RUSSIAN with russian influenced music

A german mass.... you get the point.

my arguement is that HIP HOP is a culture. Most of you emcees should agree, it is one of the main tenants of the Hip Hop (jk). but it is a culture and a language.



LifeTeen did just that. The found a culture of the youth, and translated mass for them, in thier tounge, and with thier music. The result? Many of kids are educated and excited about the mass! whats wrong with that??? The early church worshipped God in Hebrew and Armaic, and I bet you ONE MILLION DOLLARS that they used music influenced by thier culture.

I'm sorry, but I know my God loves Hip Hop. He has given me specific gifts to worship him with, to not use those gifts would be a denial of my creation. He would not have given me the gift of rapping if he hated it. He can be glorified, revered, and worshipped through hip hop. To say that he cannot is to put a BOX on GOD. you wouldn't want to do that would you?

Also, why is it ok for pianos to worship god? what about bells? are certain instruments off limits for God? The goal of the church is not reserve a particular style of music. the Goal of the church is to save people, not music.


yeah, it will never happen. and you guys seem to hate the idea. i thought i would at least get a few "wouldn't that be great" replies. but honestly, this hurts my feelings. my music is just as worthy as some bell choir. I thought phatmass would understand - or did understand that. let's bridge gaps between the church and the unchurch.

There might be some kids growing up in urban LA that will never understand the mass... unless someone translates for them.

[dUSt]

[quote]look guys.


all masses have certain cultural contexts and are adapted for the culture/language.

a spanish mass is IN SPANISH. with spanish influenced music.[/quote]
This is true. The Church is living and universal. It adapts to cultures. But I think there's a difference. It's possible to have reverent Spanish music. Hip-hop is not reverent. I love hip-hop, and I feel it's a wonderful way to praise God, but the mass is sacred and holy.

[quote]what about African masses? since dance is such an expressive part of thier culture, they dance and sing in thier native tounge.[/quote]
That's their main culture. Hip-hop is a sub-culture. First, we're Americans--that's our culture--the American culture. In our American culture, hip-hop is not viewed as sacred or holy.

[quote]Also, why is it ok for pianos to worship god? what about bells? are certain instruments off limits for God? The goal of the church is not reserve a particular style of music. the Goal of the church is to save people, not music.[/quote]
It's not the instrument. The instrument is really irrelevant. It's how the music makes you feel--what kind of mood it puts you in. If you were kneeling in front of the cross at Calvalry, with Jesus' bloody body hanging there, would you be playing hip-hop? That's what the mass is.

[quote]yeah, it will never happen. and you guys seem to hate the idea. i thought i would at least get a few "wouldn't that be great" replies. but honestly, this hurts my feelings. my music is just as worthy as some bell choir. I thought phatmass would understand - or did understand that. let's bridge gaps between the church and the unchurch.

There might be some kids growing up in urban LA that will never understand the mass... unless someone translates for them.[/quote]
Like I said, there are many, many places that hip-hop can be used in the Church. The Liturgy is sacred. The mass is the participation in Christ's final sacrifice. If it was good enough for the apostles, it should be good enough for us. We need to conform to the mass, not the other way around.

It's kind of like women and the priesthood. Just because women can't be priests, doesn't mean that they are inferior. They simply have a different role. There's theological reasons behind it.

Same with hip-hop. Just because it isn't used in the mass, doesn't mean it's an inferior means of praising God--it just has a different place.

I encourage everyone to read "The Lamb's Supper", by Scott Hahn. It's a wonderful book about the mass, and what it's really all about.

I love flip. I love hip-hop.

God bless.

[CatholicCrusader]

[quote]The Pope Loves Hip-Hop![/quote]

I didn't need to click the link...if it is merely the Pope's opinion, I certainly am not obliged to agree. Even more, the Church condemned the idea of ultramontanism a while back (after the Council of Trent, I believe), meaning just believing everything the Pope says and adhering to it indiscriminately when it is a fallible statement.

[quote]look guys.


all masses have certain cultural contexts and are adapted for the culture/language.

a spanish mass is IN SPANISH. with spanish influenced music.

what about African masses? since dance is such an expressive part of thier culture, they dance and sing in thier native tounge.

A russian mass is in RUSSIAN with russian influenced music

A german mass.... you get the point.[/quote]

That is just ONE problem (of many) with the vernacular being used at the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

JASON-

I do disagree with your second response; however, I did not see it until just now, so I could not have replied to it in a timely manner. I made it clear (I thought) that I feel that hip hop is NEVER acceptable as it is tasteless and disedifying not only in lyrics (swearing, sex, etc) but even in so-called "Christian" hip hop, the medium over which the message is portrayed is in direct conflict with the message itself, for the medium is also tasteless and disedifying. As I said, my Pastor wrote a wonderful sermon on it. It is not yet on the website, but I think I will ask him tonight if I can make copies of it so to use the agruments (since they are not in sentences but it thoughts/outline format so as it would be fitting to be spoken and not read). Therefore, if I can gte him to let me make copies tonight ot tomorrow morning, I will get back to you with it. God bless.

[dUSt]

[quote name='flip' date='Apr 16 2004, 12:46 AM'] I'm sorry, but I know my God loves Hip Hop. He has given me specific gifts to worship him with, to not use those gifts would be a denial of my creation. He would not have given me the gift of rapping if he hated it. He can be glorified, revered, and worshipped through hip hop. To say that he cannot is to put a BOX on GOD. you wouldn't want to do that would you? [/quote]
I'm not saying we shouldn't use hip-hop to worship God. That's what phatmass is doing! All I'm saying is that it doesn't have a place in the mass.

I think there's a confusion here, maybe because of the different backgrounds... I know many Protestant church services are totally focused on praise and worship. You go to church to worship God--that's it.

In the Catholic churh it's different. The mass is used to worship God, yes--but it's main focus is participation in Christ's final sacrifice on the cross. We worship God all week long. I'm not saying that Protestants don't--that's silly--but what I am saying is that the Protestant service is all about worship, because they don't center it around the Eucharist.

So, if the only intent of the mass was to praise and worship, then there'd be no reason not to use hip-hop.

I really think it centers around the understanding of what the mass actually is.

[Apollo]

[quote]QUOTE 
The Pope Loves Hip-Hop!



I didn't need to click the link...if it is merely the Pope's opinion, I certainly am not obliged to agree. Even more, the Church condemned the idea of ultramontanism a while back (after the Council of Trent, I believe), meaning just believing everything the Pope says and adhering to it indiscriminately when it is a fallible statement.[/quote]

CatholicCrusader,

Please read the article. That's all I ask. How can we engage in meaningful dialogue if you refuse to even look at my statements of point???

The Pope is the Head of Christ's Church on Earth, and while you aren't obliged to agree with everything he says...you ARE obliged to, at the very least, listen.

God Bless,

Apollo

[flip]

well, not all hip hop is put your hands in the air...


Dust-
there IS hip hop music that can make me revere God. I gurantee you, if i ever did a movie on the passion, i would have hip hop music playing...DURING THE CRUCIFIXION. it wouldn't be "let's have a party and jump up and down" it would fit the mood. It would be somber. sad. mournful.

you make a good arguement about it's place. but, if hip hop music is out of place at mass, i belive all music should be out of place at mass. and don't patronize me about protestant services. "we worship God and that's it" Church is a place where one worships, learns, expierences, interacts, and takes part in the family united under the God of the universe... don't think i don't know the mass. I kow EXACTLY what I am talking about here.

if there is spanish music that can rever God, why can't hip hop? Don't ever put a limit on what God can do through hip hop.

Yes, hip hop is a sub culture. so are the youth. Life teen brought the mass to them. We can't think of the church as standing still and waiting for people to come to us. we need to come to them, out in the world. like CHRIST. he did not sit in his room and wait for peeps to come to him. he walked out in the street - in CULTURE. the apostles went out into the world and preached the good news. What is our great commission? To make disciples of all nations and tounges! but first, we must learn to speak thier language. like i dunno, the PENTACOST!

I understand phatmass is reaching to the hip hop culture. but as soon as you say - yes this is a culture that needs to be reached for Christ - and make disciples of them- and then turn around and say, but now, you must through all that away. It would be like learning a different language to worship God with. Like German. I don't know German, and it would be ridicoulous to say "you must learn German in order to worship God - becuase God can't here anything but German".

You don't want hip hop in mass. thats fine. phatmass is your thing. you do what you want. I am ok with that... im not saying that you have to put hip hop in mass. its just an idea. but to begin to say that my music could not be reverent to God is offensive.

At Nolan, Kiel, Apolllo, and I were asked to help with a mass at our freshmen lock-in. We played all sorts of music during mass: Project 86, Sackcloth Fashion, POD, various worship songs. We also spoke during the homily and gave our testomonies. The Priest said that in concordance with Vatican II, we are all called to minister the love of Christ. So we did, and it was awesome. We showed hoe the mass and universilaty of the church transcends all boundaries.

Catholic Crusader- i think you are expressing some hardcore naivity. get the pahtmass album and then talk to me. talk to Fr. Pontifex. he's a priest that raps (and as indeed pointed out, has rapped in mass). If you think God can't here the vernacular. cool. whatever. i don't think you worship the same God i do. My God knows no boundaries. My god hears my music and smiles. My God hears my music and it glorfies Him. My God hears my music and is REVERED. If your God doesn't like hip hop. cool. But you don't know your Daddy like the emcees of phatmass know Him. I'm called to worship and teach through hip hop and to the hip hop culture. Got a problem with that? cool. You go ahead and preach the Good Word to whoever you are called to. Just to let you know that I love you, ill write a rap song about you.

[Apollo]

[quote]It's not the instrument. The instrument is really irrelevant. It's how the music makes you feel--what kind of mood it puts you in. If you were kneeling in front of the cross at Calvalry, with Jesus' bloody body hanging there, would you be playing hip-hop? [/quote]

No dUSt, I wouldn't...but I can't speak for every single person on this Earth. And every single person on this Earth belongs to Christ.

The traditional Church style of music (talking just about the music and not the lyrics here) would make many people lift their hands in praise, and some others cringe in agony. It is not the instrumentation that I go to Mass for, but the content of the message in the lyrics of the music. This entire debate is based on a matter of taste. I can't tell you how an inner-city kid "feels" when he listen's to hip-hop...and it isn't fair to limit the feelings someone has when they hear a particular style of music. There are many songs that when I listen to them have special maeaning to me because they were present or popular during important times and events in my life. I feel the presence of God every time I think of the song "Fly with Me" by the hardrock Christian band [i]Spoken[/i] because it was the first hardrock Christian song I ever heard, and that song helped change my life. My essay to gain admittance into my college was about that specific song. While I react one way to this song, others would react completely different. You just can't put limitations on something like that.

Hip-hop instills joy in my heart, and if instead of singing the traditional "Joy to the World" during Christmas Mass, I don't see anything irreverant with putting a little bump in the trunk every now and then to truly be "universal" and reach others that otherwise might turn a deaf ear.

Simply put...

Is the mass [b]obligated[/b] to conform to changing and evolving cultures and play hip-hop??? Absolutely not.

Is it sinful and irreverant to worship God in the joyful music of hip-hop every now and then during Mass??? Absolutely not.

I love dUSt and flip...two of the most devout and influential people I have ever met. God Bless you both.

[maydbyGOD]

[quote name='flip' date='Apr 16 2004, 12:27 PM']
Catholic Crusader- i think you are expressing some hardcore naivity. get the pahtmass album and then talk to me. talk to Fr. Pontifex. he's a priest that raps (and as indeed pointed out, has rapped in mass). If you think God can't here the vernacular. cool. whatever. i don't think you worship the same God i do. My God knows no boundaries. My god hears my music and smiles. My God hears my music and it glorfies Him. My God hears my music and is REVERED. If your God doesn't like hip hop. cool. But you don't know your Daddy like the emcees of phatmass know Him. I'm called to worship and teach through hip hop and to the hip hop culture. Got a problem with that? cool. You go ahead and preach the Good Word to whoever you are called to. Just to let you know that I love you, ill write a rap song about you. [/quote]
thank youflip...

i think you just saved all the phatmass artists the grief of writing


phatmass.com is a hip hop website centered in Christ.. correct

CatholicCrusader, question-why are you here?!?!?!?

was your main purpose to antagonize the members of this website?!?!?!?

it just irks me that one who knows full well that this website mixes the culture of hip hop and the love of God into one common area would degrade and devalue our God given gifts

and to yap on how sinful hip hop is...

why don't you put down the stones and help us evangelize the lost souls who know no language but hip hop..

[follow_the_pelican]

wow, you have alot to say on the matter. I agree when you say that God has no bounderies, He reads the heart. That is why we can say mass in our native tounge.
On the same note, much of the postures we take in the holy mass are symbolic.
We kneel @ the consecration, our souls are as low to the ground as possible. Yet we unite our body's out of respect and reverence of the most holy of holy's.
The climax of the mass is Holy communion. Every thing preceding this point prepares us for this expeirence. We are supposed to calm our spririt, silence our hearts in preperation for the awsomeness of His presence with our very being.
psychology has proven the impact music makes on our consciousness, loud music, despite its "positive"message desrupts our senses. Dont get me wrong,I love a good hard song, when it is played in an appropriate setting. I agree that rap is and can be used for reflection and a deeper awareness of Christ; however, That to can and is often misused. My opinion is that rap has no place in the liturgy of the Eucharist(perhaps in the homily or liturgy of the word). As I sayed before, music in the mass is supposed to bring you to a more intamate incounter with Christ. Any thing that demote's the mass or takes away from the present moment has NO place in it.
The church has been around for 2,000 years. Can you emagine what our music would be like if we where to bow to society's new fad's? We would have stuff sounding like AC-DC and carp like that!
The sacredness of the mass must and should be protected @ all costs.
I am certain your bishop would not be to happy about the pod and such bands being played during mass(you are catholic,right?).

well, God Bless

[electricdisk]

[quote name='dUSt' date='Apr 16 2004, 08:52 AM'] ....because they don't center it around the Eucharist.

....I really think it centers around the understanding of what the mass actually is. [/quote]
You beat me to this explanation!! I was feeling this myself...

That is why I posted the picture.

There is a fundamental flaw making "singing to god" equal to "offering the sacrifice of the Mass" - One is finite and limited by our humanity (singing) , the other is infinite and assisted by all the angels, the communion of saints, the holy trinity, the blessed mother and Jesus himself.

Jesus physically unites heaven and earth during the consecration. He then makes himself PHYSICALLY present in the eucharist.

Be-bopping hiphop dancing is putting the focus on the performer (good or bad) and removing it from the creator of the universe.

--No offense flip.

[dUSt]

Flip,

I'm speaking generally, so when I make comments about hip-hop not being reverent, it's on a "generally speaking" basis.

I know that hip-hop can be reverent. I know that you and many of us who actually make the music could be moved in a spiritual sense by it--but we're the minority. If you infuse that into a mass with impressionable teens, you would really have to examine why the kids are into the mass--because of the music, or because of the sacrifice they are participating in? If the music takes even 1% of their attention off of the [b]real[/b] reason that they're there, then it is harmful.

With that said, if a culture existed with hip-hop being widely accepted as a means of communication--a culture where hip-hop wasn't automatically associated with sex and money, then I could see how it could be used in the liturgy. The sad fact is, with the state of hip-hop as it is today, regardless of the lyrics--there's going to be an automatic association with the negative. This would be harmful to the true meaning of the mass. If we truly want hip-hop in the liturgy, then we must change the entire hip-hop culture's image. This seems like an unreachable task.

A priest can deliver his homily the best way he see's fit. That's why Pontifex and Miko were free to do that. The homily has a certain amount of flexibilty--that's why you'll occasionally see a guest speaker or travelling missionary.

We have to keep the focus on Christ. The last thing I would ever want to happen inside a teen's head during mass is, "I am on my knees preparing myself for you Lord" being replaced with "man, this is a dope beat".

God bless.

[point5]

A priest can deliever his homily the way he sees fit...as Pontifex did through hiphop. This to me makes no sense as to why the music set in mass can not also be suited to REACH THE INTENDED AUDIENCE.

Dust-
You are afraid that hip-hop in the mass might take the youths thoughts or whatnot away from the true meaning in the sacrafice of the Eucharist. "Even if 1% of the focus is taken away". But that argument can be made for ANY form of music depending on the audience listening. If a song has a flute it it and there happens to be a flutist in the audience she might put a little more focus on the style of music she is accustomed to. That argument is invalid. Plus I say what if hip-hop can bring the audience MORE into focus of the true meaning of the mass and the sacrafice and the true presence of Christ in the Eucharist. I say do not put limits on how God wants to reach to others (our call as believers), and do not put limits on HIP-HOP itself. The art itself can reach someone on the deepest of levels...I know....and words don't do it justice...the same as words don't do the Eucharist justice. I thought this community would be a place were we can appreciate the influnce the hip-hop culture can have.

I Love everyone here...but I disagree that we need to seggregate praticular styles of music from mass.

on a side note this would not be a world wide change to the mass...something every Catholic was effected by each Sunday...but rather something that takes part in a mass where it might be best accepted...like in the inner city of for urban youth!!!

Peace and Love to all

please see our side on this and do not just cast aside hip-hop as what you think it might be.