Descartes: Ally Or Enemy?

[Ziggamafu]

Opinions on the positive / negative influence of Descartes in the Catholic and secular worlds?

[MIKolbe]

Descartes was a smooth talker.

[Apotheoun]

I don't really think much of Descartes. Pun intended.

[jeffpugh]

I find his thought to be a hindrance to the faith. He starts with doubting our ability to perceive the physical realm and concludes that he can only know of himself. This seems counter-intuitive to Christian thought in which we believe that the world is actually measurable and quantifiable and has absolutes. His
cogito ergo sum" thought process leads away from a creation of absolutes.

[TeresaBenedicta]

[quote name='Sacred Music Man' date='12 July 2010 - 07:08 PM' timestamp='1278972514' post='2141832']
I find his thought to be a hindrance to the faith. He starts with doubting our ability to perceive the physical realm and concludes that he can only know of himself. This seems counter-intuitive to Christian thought in which we believe that the world is actually measurable and quantifiable and has absolutes. His
cogito ergo sum" thought process leads away from a creation of absolutes.
[/quote]



He opened the doors for Kant and the split between the noumena and phenomena realms. And we know the rest of Modernity.

Besides, Descartes couldn't do what his project supposedly sets out to do. He was unable to let go of [i]everything[/i]. He still maintained the scholastic understanding of 'substance' in his understanding of himself, in the "I" of the cogito.

[laetitia crucis]

[quote name='Sacred Music Man' date='12 July 2010 - 06:08 PM' timestamp='1278972514' post='2141832']
I find his thought to be a hindrance to the faith. He starts with doubting our ability to perceive the physical realm and concludes that he can only know of himself. This seems counter-intuitive to Christian thought in which we believe that the world is actually measurable and quantifiable and has absolutes. His
cogito ergo sum" thought process leads away from a creation of absolutes.
[/quote]


[quote name='TeresaBenedicta' date='12 July 2010 - 11:52 PM' timestamp='1278993140' post='2141947']


He opened the doors for Kant and the split between the noumena and phenomena realms. And we know the rest of Modernity.

Besides, Descartes couldn't do what his project supposedly sets out to do. He was unable to let go of [i]everything[/i]. He still maintained the scholastic understanding of 'substance' in his understanding of himself, in the "I" of the cogito.
[/quote]

I completely agree with both of the comments.

[TeresaBenedicta]

I'd be interested in hearing the thinking behind those who believe Descartes is something of an ally.

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='TeresaBenedicta' date='13 July 2010 - 10:22 AM' timestamp='1279030948' post='2142024']
I'd be interested in hearing the thinking behind those who believe Descartes is something of an ally.
[/quote]
Werd.

[Ziggamafu]

Although he begins with a radical skepticism that makes his own autonomous individualism the center of the universe, I always found him to be a help. There are some who say he is the precursor to the skepticism we see today, but I don't agree. After all, he looked at the increasing skepticism and closet atheism of his own day and tried to "out-skeptic" everyone else for the purpose of arguing in faith's favor. For the atheist, there is no faith and no interest in pursuing it, and any atheistic philosophy is a very internal thing. By beginning in the same or a similar place as Descartes, the atheist may still arrive at knowledge of God's existence by the light of natural reason alone. I see Descartes as the sort of modern-day apologist who attempts to begin where the skeptical audience is at. If you want to go back to somebody who set the stage for secular "obectivity" opposing religious "subjectivity", thereby setting the stage for the elevation of the secular realm as of more importance or authority than the religious realm, I would point to Ockham.

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' date='13 July 2010 - 08:39 PM' timestamp='1279067978' post='2142297']
Although he begins with a radical skepticism that makes his own autonomous individualism the center of the universe, I always found him to be a help. There are some who say he is the precursor to the skepticism we see today, but I don't agree. After all, he looked at the increasing skepticism and closet atheism of his own day and tried to "out-skeptic" everyone else for the purpose of arguing in faith's favor. For the atheist, there is no faith and no interest in pursuing it, and any atheistic philosophy is a very internal thing. By beginning in the same or a similar place as Descartes, the atheist may still arrive at knowledge of God's existence by the light of natural reason alone. I see Descartes as the sort of modern-day apologist who attempts to begin where the skeptical audience is at. If you want to go back to somebody who set the stage for secular "obectivity" opposing religious "subjectivity", thereby setting the stage for the elevation of the secular realm as of more importance or authority than the religious realm, I would point to Ockham.
[/quote]
I would agree with the point on Ockham. I suppose I like your point of view on Descartes and his attempt at an "apology" through "out sceptic-ing" his fellow thinkers. I suppose with anything that is good, someone will try and distort its meaning and therein lies the problem.

[God the Father]

Long winded and often translucent. Heck of a math/science guy though.