Abortion In The Usa

[KnightofChrist]

Trouble is as I attempted to earlier point out. If we were speaking of Blacks or Jews in relation to laws against murdering those people, Jim, and others would not be concerned that certain groups deny Blacks and Jews personhood.

Respect God rather than men, the moral law must be enforced. Right is right if no one is right, and wrong is wrong if everybody is wrong.

[JimR-OCDS]

KnightofChrist


[i]Trouble is as I attempted to earlier point out. If we were speaking of Blacks or Jews in relation to laws against murdering those people, Jim, and others would not be concerned that certain groups deny Blacks and Jews personhood.

[/i]Nonsense. Why don't you stick to what you believe, rather than trying to falsely state what myself and others believe?

The consensus in our society is that murdering Blacks and Jews is immoral and we don't deny their personhood.

However you can't say the same for early abortions. There is no consensus as to when a fetus becomes a person and
therefor protected by law. We believe that human life is to be protected from conception on, but its not a consensus in
our society.

[i]Respect God rather than men, the moral law must be enforced.
[/i]
God commands us to love one another, are we to disrespect them when they don't accept our doctrines?


[i]Right is right if no one is right, and wrong is wrong if everybody is wrong.

[/i]Our understanding of everything that is right and wrong isn't necessarily accepted by the majority.

We believe that using artificial birth control is immoral, but you'll be hard pressed in getting birth
control outlawed.

It doesn't mean we abandon our beliefs, but it helps keep us mindful of how we teach others.

Calling pro-choicer's baby killers and murderers only shuts down the debate and our message gets
nowhere.

Jim

[JimR-OCDS]

Nihil Obstat'


[i]Past experience. I'd be more than happy to discover that this is no longer the case. I don't feel superior at all. What I doubt is your grasp of Catholic morality based on our nearly identical discussions from a few months ago. Feel free to prove me wrong.

[/i]Well you were wrong in the past as you are now and you really have no interest in knowing otherwise, so the point is mute.


[i]Should we not be working towards doing absolutely everything we can to end the murder of innocents?
[/i]
No we shouldn't, otherwise we'd be forced to take up arms against those who abort babies.

We need to seek the things we can while knowing the things we can't and having the wisdom to
know the difference.

Jim

[Nihil Obstat]

1956 The natural law, present in the heart of each man and established by reason, is [b]universal in its precepts[/b] and [b]its authority extends to all men[/b]. It expresses the dignity of the person and determines the basis for his fundamental rights and duties:

For there is a true law: right reason. It is in conformity with nature, is diffused among all men, and is[b] immutable and eternal; its orders summon to duty[/b]; its prohibitions turn away from offense . . . . [b]To replace it with a contrary law is a sacrilege; failure to apply even one of its provisions is forbidden[/b]; no one can abrogate it entirely.9
1957 Application of the natural law varies greatly; it can demand reflection that takes account of various conditions of life according to places, times, and circumstances. Nevertheless, in the diversity of cultures, the natural law remains as a rule that [b]binds men among themselves and [u]imposes on them[/u], beyond the inevitable differences, common principles.[/b]

1958 The natural law is [b]immutable and permanent[/b] throughout the variations of history;10 it subsists under the flux of ideas and customs and supports their progress. The rules that express it remain substantially valid. Even when it is rejected in its very principles, [b]it cannot be destroyed or removed[/b] from the heart of man. It always rises again in the life of individuals and societies:

Theft is surely punished by your law, O Lord, and by the law that is written in the human heart, the law that iniquity itself does not efface.11
1959 The natural law, the Creator's very good work, provides the [b]solid foundation on which man can build the structure of moral rules[/b] to guide his choices. It also provides the indispensable moral foundation for [b]building the human community.[/b] Finally, it [b]provides the necessary basis for the civil law[/b] with which it is connected, whether by a reflection that draws conclusions from its principles, or by additions of a positive and juridical nature.

1960 The precepts of natural law are not perceived by everyone clearly and immediately. In the present situation sinful man needs grace and revelation so moral and religious truths may be known "by everyone with facility, with firm certainty and with no admixture of error."12 The natural law provides revealed law and grace with a foundation prepared by God and in accordance with the work of the Spirit.





Therefore, drawing from the above passages, current abortion law in much of the world is a sacrilege. We are dealing with an unacceptable state of affairs. The situation demands action. We must act such that civil law is brought back into conformity with natural law, because the way it is now, the two are disconnected. This robs civil law of its authority.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='21 July 2010 - 10:26 AM' timestamp='1279725993' post='2145901']
[/i]Well you were wrong in the past as you are now and you really have no interest in knowing otherwise, so the point is mute.
[/quote]
Moot.

In the past you have denied that abortion constitutes murder. Has your position changed?


[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='21 July 2010 - 10:26 AM' timestamp='1279725993' post='2145901']
No we shouldn't, otherwise we'd be forced to take up arms against those who abort babies.
[/quote]
No comment.

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='21 July 2010 - 10:26 AM' timestamp='1279725993' post='2145901']
We need to seek the things we can while knowing the things we can't and having the wisdom to
know the difference.
[/quote]
This is meaningless.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='21 July 2010 - 11:21 AM' timestamp='1279725713' post='2145898']
KnightofChrist


[i]Trouble is as I attempted to earlier point out. If we were speaking of Blacks or Jews in relation to laws against murdering those people, Jim, and others would not be concerned that certain groups deny Blacks and Jews personhood.

[/i]Nonsense. Why don't you stick to what you believe, rather than trying to falsely state what myself and others believe?

The consensus in our society is that murdering Blacks and Jews is immoral and we don't deny their personhood.

However you can't say the same for early abortions. There is no consensus as to when a fetus becomes a person and
therefor protected by law. We believe that human life is to be protected from conception on, but its not a consensus in
our society.

[i]Respect God rather than men, the moral law must be enforced.
[/i]
God commands us to love one another, are we to disrespect them when they don't accept our doctrines?


[i]Right is right if no one is right, and wrong is wrong if everybody is wrong.

[/i]Our understanding of everything that is right and wrong isn't necessarily accepted by the majority.

We believe that using artificial birth control is immoral, but you'll be hard pressed in getting birth
control outlawed.

It doesn't mean we abandon our beliefs, but it helps keep us mindful of how we teach others.

Calling pro-choicer's baby killers and murderers only shuts down the debate and our message gets
nowhere.

Jim
[/quote]

To put it simply in other words you respect man rather than God, even when millions of children are being murdered daily.

Edited July 21, 2010 by KnightofChrist

[JimR-OCDS]

Nihil Obstat

[i]In the past you have denied that abortion constitutes murder. Has your position changed?

[/i]Direct abortion is more in line with manslaughter, but not murder.

Also, not all abortions are direct. Some are indirect to save the mother's life, and therefore not murder


My argument in the past was the strategy of the pro-life people calling pro-choice people and women
who have had abortions, murderers. Some had indirect abortions to save their life, are they murderers?

Our Bishops don't sink to such a crude level of disrespect and neither should we. Obviously you've not
grasped this concept.



[i]This is meaningless[/i].

It was suppose to be,

we need to seek the things we can change while knowing the things we can't and having the wisdom to
know the difference.




Jim

Edited July 21, 2010 by JimR-OCDS

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='21 July 2010 - 12:02 PM' timestamp='1279731732' post='2145936']
[/i]Direct abortion is akin to murder, but indirect abortion is not.
Not all abortions are direct.
[/quote]
In the past you have stated that the killing of a pre-viable infant is not murder. Do you continue to stand by this position?

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='21 July 2010 - 01:02 PM' timestamp='1279731732' post='2145936']
Nihil Obstat

[i]In the past you have denied that abortion constitutes murder. Has your position changed?

[/i]Direct abortion is akin to murder, but indirect abortion is not.

Not all abortions are direct.



[i]No comment.

[/i]Other than personal attacks, its pretty much all you contributed to this thread so far.


[i]This is meaningless[/i].

For you it is.

Jim
[/quote]

No one has personally attacked you. Pointing out your grave error is not an attack upon you personally.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='21 July 2010 - 12:14 PM' timestamp='1279732488' post='2145944']
No one has personally attacked you. Pointing out your grave error is not an attack upon you personally.
[/quote]
I do need to up the charity a little bit, but fundamentally this is correct.

[JimR-OCDS]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='21 July 2010 - 01:00 PM' timestamp='1279728056' post='2145917']
To put it simply in other words you respect man rather than God, even when millions of children are being murdered daily.
[/quote]


Not even close.

Please don't attempt to tell me what I believe about God. [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif[/img]



Jim

[JimR-OCDS]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='21 July 2010 - 02:07 PM' timestamp='1279732070' post='2145941']
In the past you have stated that the killing of a pre-viable infant is not murder. Do you continue to stand by this position?
[/quote]



No I never said that.

I said an abortion in order to save the life of a mother, especially on a previable fetus, is not murder.

Jim

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='21 July 2010 - 12:19 PM' timestamp='1279732795' post='2145949']
No I never said that.

I said an abortion in order to save the life of a mother, especially on a previable fetus, is not murder.

Jim
[/quote]
So in other words, according to you, sometimes abortion is not murder? (Exactly what I stated above.)

Edited July 21, 2010 by Nihil Obstat

[JimR-OCDS]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='21 July 2010 - 02:21 PM' timestamp='1279732896' post='2145950']
So in other words, according to you, sometimes abortion is not murder? (Exactly what I stated above.)
[/quote]


That's right, some times, abortion is not murder.

An indirect abortion is not murder and is even considered licit by the Catholic Church.


Jim

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='21 July 2010 - 11:21 AM' timestamp='1279725713' post='2145898']
Nonsense. Why don't you stick to what you believe, rather than trying to falsely state what myself and others believe?

The consensus in our society is that murdering Blacks and Jews is immoral and we don't deny their personhood.

However you can't say the same for early abortions. There is no consensus as to when a fetus becomes a person and
therefor protected by law. We believe that human life is to be protected from conception on, but its not a consensus in
our society. [/quote]

That's the point, your logic would allow the murdering of Blacks and Jews if our society allowed it. Your logic would allow it but you would not, you are in conflict with your own logic.

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='21 July 2010 - 11:21 AM' timestamp='1279725713' post='2145898']
God commands us to love one another, are we to disrespect them when they don't accept our doctrines?[/quote]

Funny that you should speak of the commandment of Love, or love at all. Your logic shows no love at all for the unborn. If it does it is a false love. Again there are some that do not believe murder is wrong, your logic would not allow us to make the respect 'our doctrines' against murder.

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='21 July 2010 - 11:21 AM' timestamp='1279725713' post='2145898']Our understanding of everything that is right and wrong isn't necessarily accepted by the majority.[/quote]

An illegitimate, and irrelevant point. Right is right if no one is right, and wrong is wrong if everybody is wrong.


[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='21 July 2010 - 11:21 AM' timestamp='1279725713' post='2145898']We believe that using artificial birth control is immoral, but you'll be hard pressed in getting birth
control outlawed.[/quote]

You'd be hard pressed to find a KKK member that believed Blacks had the right to exist. Does this mean that in parts of our nation where KKK members maybe a majority that blacks do not have the right to exist? Your logic would tell us no they do not.

Edited July 21, 2010 by KnightofChrist