Abortion In The Usa

[JimR-OCDS]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' date='20 July 2010 - 04:17 PM' timestamp='1279653436' post='2145542']
So what?
It seems to me that your argument is based on the position "if it can't be changed easily, it isn't worth working towards."
Am I perceiving that correctly?
[/quote]


My argument is that here in the USA early term abortions can't be made illegal,
because no one would accept the penalties that would be necessary to make such a
law effective.


Jim

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='20 July 2010 - 02:32 PM' timestamp='1279654349' post='2145558']
My argument is that here in the USA early term abortions can't be made illegal,
because no one would accept the penalties that would be necessary to make such a
law effective.


Jim
[/quote]
Nobody here really cares much about can or can't. The question, you may recall, was "should".

[JimR-OCDS]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='20 July 2010 - 04:34 PM' timestamp='1279654485' post='2145559']
Nobody here really cares much about can or can't. The question, you may recall, was "should".
[/quote]


The question is, "should we keep abortion legal."

The question can only be answered if you "could" make it illegal.

Jim

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='20 July 2010 - 03:44 PM' timestamp='1279655081' post='2145563']
The question is, "should we keep abortion legal."

The question can only be answered if you "could" make it illegal.

Jim
[/quote]
There is a big difference between could and should. The question is should.

Here is the question, in other words: if you were the president, and could sign a paper that said "Every abortion is now illegal,", would you do it?

[JimR-OCDS]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' date='20 July 2010 - 05:43 PM' timestamp='1279658617' post='2145609']
There is a big difference between could and should. The question is should.

Here is the question, in other words: if you were the president, and could sign a paper that said "Every abortion is now illegal,", would you do it?
[/quote]


The question is dealing with the reality that abortion is legal, not the hypothetical.

Therefore I attempted to answer the question based on reality, not the hypothetical.


BTW, to answer your question, I already stated in a previos post;


[i]If I had my druthers, yes and I would like it if everyone would accept Catholic teaching on abortion and we could make
a law that is enforceable . But I live in the real world where many do not share my beliefs.

[/i]
Jim

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='20 July 2010 - 02:44 PM' timestamp='1279655081' post='2145563']
The question is, "should we keep abortion legal."

The question can only be answered if you "could" make it illegal.

Jim
[/quote]
We also *can't* eliminate poverty. On the other hand, *should* we take steps to alleviate suffering when we have the opportunity?

[Nihil Obstat]

What Jim's position amounts to is that we may not work towards a society that recognizes Catholic morality, because of the fact that some people don't like Catholic morality.

[JimR-OCDS]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='21 July 2010 - 12:41 AM' timestamp='1279683684' post='2145804']
We also *can't* eliminate poverty. On the other hand, *should* we take steps to alleviate suffering when we have the opportunity?
[/quote]


You can't make a law eliminating poverty. The goal is ideological and not in the context of law.


My point in the discussion is about making abortion illegal, through law. At one time abortion was in fact, illegal,
because at one time, the majority saw abortion as immoral.

However, the current state of our society is such, that making abortion illegal, is not possible.

Maybe in the future it could be, but that will only happen through education efforts, not political campaigning and
certainly not with offensive rhetoric.

Jim

Edited July 21, 2010 by JimR-OCDS

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='21 July 2010 - 08:31 AM' timestamp='1279719111' post='2145865']
You can't make a law eliminating poverty. The goal is ideological and not in the context of law.


My point in the discussion is about making abortion illegal, through law. At one time abortion was in fact, illegal,
because at one time, the majority saw abortion as immoral.

However, the current state of our society is such, that making abortion illegal, is not possible.

Maybe in the future it could be, but that will only happen through education efforts, not political campaigning and
certainly not with offensive rhetoric.

Jim
[/quote]
You're changing the issue. None of us really believe that we're going to outlaw abortion the day after tomorrow. It's just not a rational possibility. We don't however, imagine that this gives us an excuse to vote for pro-abortion politicians and by and large ignore our moral imperative to work towards a culture of life.

[JimR-OCDS]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='21 July 2010 - 01:18 AM' timestamp='1279685939' post='2145816']
What Jim's position amounts to is that we may not work towards a society that recognizes Catholic morality, because of the fact that some people don't like Catholic morality.
[/quote]


Once again you try to state what I believe and fail.

Our moral values can only be recognized by our living up to them and not just on the abortion issue, but all areas of morality. The sex abuse scandal has greatly damaged moral credibility in the Catholic Church. Only those in denial don't recognise this.

How we influence society makes the difference on whether they'll embrace our values or reject them. We've been doing a better job at getting people to reject them overall.

The point of my discussion was about making abortion illegal, which the thread is about.

As usual your responses are more on the level of personal attacks rather than the topic.


Jim

Edited July 21, 2010 by JimR-OCDS

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='21 July 2010 - 08:42 AM' timestamp='1279719744' post='2145868']
Once again you try to state what I believe and fail.
Our moral values can only be recognized by our living up to them and not just on the abortion issue, but all areas of morality. The sex abuse scandal has greatly damaged moral
credibility in the Catholic Church. Only those in denial don't recognise this.
How we influence society makes the difference on whether they'll embrace our values or reject them. We've been doing a better job at getting people to reject them overall.
The point of my discussion was about making abortion illegal, which the thread is about.
As usual your responses are more on the level of personal attacks rather than the topic.
Jim
[/quote]
Do you deny that as Catholics, each one of us has the moral responsibility to work to bring Catholic morality into secular life? Do you deny that use of law may be part of our efforts to do so?

Do you deny that absolute Truth in faith and morals is found within the Catholic Church?

Edited July 21, 2010 by Nihil Obstat

[JimR-OCDS]

Nihil Obstat


[i]Do you deny that as Catholics, each one of us has the moral responsibility to work to bring Catholic morality into secular life?

[/i]No, I do not deny this. We have a responsibility to bring our moral values into secular life. However, if we don't live
up to those values, we merely show ourselves to be hypocrites.

Also, we have to accept that we can't force others to accept our moral doctrines any more than they can force us
to accept theirs.



[i]Do you deny that use of law may be part of our efforts to do so?


[/i]Of course we can use the law to do so, but we also have to recognize that there is a political process in
writing and getting laws passed. Not everyone is going to accept Catholic moral teaching on the issue.

[i]Do you deny that absolute Truth in faith and morals is found within the Catholic Church?

[/i]Of course the Catholic Church has the fullness of truth in faith and morals, but why is it
you feel so superior, you need to question my Catholicism? [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif[/img]




Jim

[JimR-OCDS]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='21 July 2010 - 10:41 AM' timestamp='1279719672' post='2145867']
You're changing the issue. None of us really believe that we're going to outlaw abortion the day after tomorrow. It's just not a rational possibility. We don't however, imagine that this gives us an excuse to vote for pro-abortion politicians and by and large ignore our moral imperative to work towards a culture of life.
[/quote]


The issue of the thread is, "should we keep abortion legal?"

Thats what I've been responding to.

If we should make it illegal, who do we do so?

Jim

[Arco]

I think it's reasonable to doubt the efficacy of using law to do so. Law may regulate society in much the same way morality does, but law is dependent upon a shared morality to even begin functioning. Without that, law is arbitrary and inexplicable; a thing may be outlawed because it is unpopular, or legalized because it is demanded, without recourse to truth. This is, unfortunately, the place our society finds itself, struggling with the very notions of freedom of religion and conscience, let along policy issues on life and death which seem to depend entirely on whether or not they are popular. Truth may not be up to a majority vote, but law is, and I think it's damaging to conflate the two these days.

Abortion is a moral evil. Unquestionably so, and violently so. It's legality is a problem, because it means our society has accepted a moral evil as either a necessary evil -- if such a thing is to exist -- or a moral good. And I think that that points to a much deeper crisis of which support for abortion is a symptom. If I may -- the problem wasn't the Holocaust. The problem was Nazism. The one made the other possible. Nazism was a crisis of conscience and ethics and morals, where law was tied to an evil idea, and had not Nazism been discredited, the Holocaust would not have been a one-time event. It would be repeated and repeated and repeated, across the world, against every inconvenient ethnicity.

The problem, then, is a post-Christian society that has rejected transcendent truth which informs and undergirds law. I think law may in fact be a very big part of that problem, and not necessarily an avenue for its resolution.

Edited July 21, 2010 by Arco

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='21 July 2010 - 09:18 AM' timestamp='1279721936' post='2145874']
]Of course the Catholic Church has the fullness of truth in faith and morals, but why is it
you feel so superior, you need to question my Catholicism? [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif[/img]
[/quote]
Past experience. I'd be more than happy to discover that this is no longer the case. I don't feel superior at all. What I doubt is your grasp of Catholic morality based on our nearly identical discussions from a few months ago. Feel free to prove me wrong.

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='21 July 2010 - 09:21 AM' timestamp='1279722091' post='2145875']
The issue of the thread is, "should we keep abortion legal?"
Thats what I've been responding to.
If we should make it illegal, who do we do so?
[/quote]
Should we not be working towards doing absolutely everything we can to end the murder of innocents?