Abortion In The Usa

[Hilde]

You mean something very concrete? What happens to other murderers? Long prison sentences and the death penalty in some places.

[Vincent Vega]

Oh this is an easy one.
The abortionist should, if he is convicted, face a sentence typical of murder in the first degree.
Any nurses or assistants, if convicted, should be considered accessories and sentenced accordingly.
The culpability and thus prosecution of the mother should be determined on a case-to-case basis, though, as there are typically extenuating circumstances, particularly if the mother is young or incapacitated in some way or so on.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' date='19 July 2010 - 02:24 PM' timestamp='1279567475' post='2145012']
Oh this is an easy one.
The abortionist should, if he is convicted, face a sentence typical of murder in the first degree.
Any nurses or assistants, if convicted, should be considered accessories and sentenced accordingly.
The culpability and thus prosecution of the mother should be determined on a case-to-case basis, though, as there are typically extenuating circumstances, particularly if the mother is young or incapacitated in some way or so on.
[/quote]

I agree with this.

[JimR-OCDS]

OK, so according to the last two posters, abortionist, that is both the woman who obtains an abortion and the doctors and nurses who provide or assist in them, should be treated as murderers.

Now is this all abortions including early abortions on a pre-viable fetus?

Keep in mind that Jews, Muslims and others, believe that the soul doesn't enter the body of the unborn,
until viability.

They do not believe that abortion before viability is immoral.

That being understood, do you think getting a law to make all abortions illegal, which carries the same penalty as murder, has
a chance of passing through the legislative process?


Jim

Edited July 19, 2010 by JimR-OCDS

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='19 July 2010 - 03:41 PM' timestamp='1279568465' post='2145028']
That being understood, do you think getting a law to make all abortions illegal, which carries the same penalty as murder, has
a chance of passing through the legislative process?
[/quote]
Would you have believed, if you were told, say, in 1950, that a $700 billion taxpayer bailout of private sector companies would have a chance of passing the legislative process?

Simply because it isn't possible today does not mean we should throw our hands up and walk away. Neither does it justify us to vote for a pro-abortion politican.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='19 July 2010 - 03:41 PM' timestamp='1279568465' post='2145028']
OK, so according to the last two posters, abortionist, that is both the woman who obtains an abortion and the doctors and nurses who provide or assist in them, should be treated as murderers.

Now is this all abortions including early abortions on a pre-viable fetus?

Keep in mind that Jews, Muslims and others, believe that the soul doesn't enter the body of the unborn,
until viability.

They do not believe that abortion before viability is immoral.

That being understood, do you think getting a law to make all abortions illegal, which carries the same penalty as murder, has
a chance of passing through the legislative process?


Jim
[/quote]

The Abortion "Doctors" are clearly murders, but not all the mothers can be or should be seen as the same. I view many as abused victims of the Abortionist.

Abortion is always Murder. From conception onward the baby is part of the human species and afforded the God given rights that all humans are given.


-------------

Here is a speech I gave in my American Womens Issues class last semester that blew my very Liberal Professor out of the water. She agreed with it and was crying by the end of it. She was once a Liberal Judge and very pro-choice.

-------------


The Liberty of Men

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator
with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." 1

This is the founding principle of our Nation. The words promise Liberty for all men, but
how you interpret, Men, and Liberty changes their respected meanings.
How you interpret those words will likely effect how you answer the following questions.

What is truth? Do you hear it when it is spoken? Does it exist? Is it objective, or subjective?

What is Man? The first question of the first day in this class, if I am not mistaken.
So, What is Man, or rather who is man and who is not.
Because who is and who is not a person determines
who has Liberty and who is denied Liberty.

What is the origin of Liberty? Where do our rights come from?
Are rights given by the Law, does Government give the people Liberty?

Repeatedly through out time, again and again, man has denied the humanity and personhood of his fellow man.
Because Man has continually denied the truth. The Truth that no matter what race, sex, or creed people maybe,
everyone is human, everyone has personhood. Everyone has rights and liberty.

Yet men have always broke this truth with the use of the Law, the Government.
If rights are given by Government, rights can be taken away by Government.
These types of laws have unjustly 'justified' the oppression of women
and even greater evils such as the enslavement of the African, and the Jewish Holocaust.

These laws where based on limited Personhood. Which is based upon cognitive ability, physical form, and dependence.
Non-person persons, or less than human, humans, have always had their cognitive ability attacked,
their intelligence or their apparent lack thereof.
Their physical form such as skin color, black or white or sex, man or woman.

But that type of injustice is a thing of the past, right? In America, while by no means prefect, She has learned
something from the oppression of women, the enslavement of blacks, and the lessons of the Holocaust. Right?

Yet, what if I told you that 1,784 blacks, and 2,000 women where murdered today, completely within the Law? 2
Would you quickly demand the Government to carry out justice for the slain?

How you would feel, and your actions would be determined on your acceptance or denial of the truth,
who you classify as human, and who you deny personhood too. As well as where you believe Liberty comes from.

Most if not All Americans today will say they believe Liberty is for everyone, no matter what.

And most would be quite upset to hear that 1,784 blacks, and 2,000 women where brutally murdered every day in America.
Yet when it is revealed that those poor souls are unborn babies, suddenly Liberty is not for all,
and can be denied to the unwanted, the forgotten, the nonperson person.

Medical science has recently shown, that a flash of light within the womb accompanies the moment of conception. 3
The amount of energy given off at that moment can on a microscopic level be compared
to that of the Big Bang which created the known universe and everything within it.

Despite claims to the contrary, science has irrefutably proven that life,
human life begins at conception. At that moment a unique being exist,
one with it's own unique genetic structure, and therefor is a member of the Homo sapiens species. 4

So when it comes to the unborn child, the question is not if she is human.
But if a human can be a nonperson?
Clearly the answer is no, all humans are persons.


Yet, personhood is denied to the unborn just as slaves, and the Jewish people where legally denied personhood.
A law decreed that a group of unwanted human beings were legally nonpersons, and could be enslaved or put to death.

Laws that allow for the murder of children is based on the same reasoning of the past.
That these people are not persons, because they lack a certain cognitive ability,
or lack an approved physical form, and dependence.

If a unborn child is not human based on the lack of cognitive ability, what of the mentally handicap?
Are they less than human because of their handicap? And does it justify killing them?
What of burn victims, and persons missing both their arms and legs?
Are they also less than human because they lack "human form"? And does that justify killing them?

A child from when she is born from her mothers womb until she has at lest reached adolescence,
is completely dependent on her parents.
Does that dependence justify killing her?

No, of course not, but for some reason it justifies the killing of the unborn.

Which side will ultimately win the day is not yet known. Yet the choice is clear to those that wish to see the truth.
America and the world must decide if it wants to live
the dream of Maraget Sanger Founder of Planned Parenthood that dream that

'Colored people are human weeds and they are to be exterminated.' 5

and

"The most merciful thing that a family does to one of its infant members is to kill it." 6


I pray that we live the Dream of Liberty which is found in the preamble of the Declaration,
and was the Dream of Martian Luther King that dream that..

"We can never be satisfied as long as our children are stripped
of their selfhood and robbed of their dignity"

And

"When we allow freedom ring, when we let it ring
from every village and every hamlet, from every
state and every city.

We will be able to speed up that day when all of God's children,
black men and white men, Jews and Gentiles, Protestants and Catholics,
will be able to join hands and sing the words"

Free at last! Free at last!
Thank God Almighty, we are free at last! 7


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1. The Declaration of Independence

2. Statistics provided by the Guttmacher Institute Website: Jeff J. Koloze, Abortion in the African-American Community, Sociological Data and Literary Examples

3. Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. USA Vol. 87, December 1990 Physiology/Pharmacology

4. E.L. Potter, M.D., and J.M. Craig, M.D. Pathology of the Fetus and the Infant (3rd Edition). Chicago: Year Book Medical Publishers, 1975, page vii.: Moore, Keith L. and Persaud, T.V.N. Before We Are Born: Essentials of Embryology and Birth Defects. 4th edition. Philadelphia: W.B. Saunders Company, 1993, p. 1: O'Rahilly, Ronan and Müller, Fabiola. Human Embryology and Teratology, 2nd edition. New York: Wiley-Liss, 1996, pp. 8: Subcommittee on Separation of Powers to Senate Judiciary Committee S-158, Report, 97th Congress, 1st Session, 1981: Peter Singer, Practical Ethics, 2nd ed, Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1993), 85-86.: David Boonin, A Defense of Abortion, Cambridge University Press: New York, p. 20

5. Killer Angel: George Grant: Reformer Press: page 65: Woman's Body, Woman's Right: p 332: see also Killer Angel: p 73

6. The Woman Rebel, Volume I, Number 1. Reprinted in Woman and the New Race. New York: Brentanos Publishers, 1922.

7. Martin Luther King Jr, I Have a Dream Speech

Edited July 19, 2010 by KnightofChrist

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='19 July 2010 - 02:05 PM' timestamp='1279566314' post='2144995']
If you want to change the secular law to reflect moral law, then you have to have penalties for those who break the law,
otherwise its meaningless.
I have no desire to change moral law, how'd you come up with that?
The topic of this thread is whether we should keep abortion legal or not.
Jim
[/quote]
[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='19 July 2010 - 02:41 PM' timestamp='1279568465' post='2145028']
OK, so according to the last two posters, abortionist, that is both the woman who obtains an abortion and the doctors and nurses who provide or assist in them, should be treated as murderers.
Now is this all abortions including early abortions on a pre-viable fetus?
Keep in mind that Jews, Muslims and others, believe that the soul doesn't enter the body of the unborn,
until viability.
They do not believe that abortion before viability is immoral.
That being understood, do you think getting a law to make all abortions illegal, which carries the same penalty as murder, has
a chance of passing through the legislative process?
Jim
[/quote]
How come, after at least two or three other occasions of having this same, identical debate, do you continue to ignore us when we say repeatedly that
[size="5"]the fact that some people wouldn't like the law, or that it would present some practical difficulties has literally nothing at all to do with the morality of said law[/size]?

Your apparent desire for abortion to remain legal constitutes some form of support for and cooperation with murder. Remember, the last two or three times we had this debate, we proved to you conclusively and deductively that abortion is indeed murder from a foundation in Catholic morality.

[JimR-OCDS]

KnightofChrist,
I agree with your essay, but in this forum, you're preaching to the choir.

However, in the secular realm of politics Jews, Muslims and others, do not believe that a pre-viable fetus is a person,
which should be protected under the constitution.


So, the question again comes back, if you could write a law to make all abortions illegal, what would be the penalty?

Jim

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='19 July 2010 - 03:50 PM' timestamp='1279572605' post='2145077']
However, in the secular realm of politics Jews, Muslims and others, do not believe that a pre-viable fetus is a person,
which should be protected under the constitution.

[/quote]
Why should your constitution protect murder?
I'll bet you can still find people somewhere in the US who believe black people to be subhuman. Should you cater to that belief as well? Why not? Just because most people don't agree with them anymore?

Your position falls into utterly hopeless and unsalvageable moral relativism and cannot be accepted even for a second by a Catholic. Whether or not you intend it is something I will not (indeed cannot) address, though as another Catholic I hope that your are merely unintentionally misrepresenting yourself.

Edited July 19, 2010 by Nihil Obstat

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='19 July 2010 - 04:50 PM' timestamp='1279572605' post='2145077']
KnightofChrist,
I agree with your essay, but in this forum, you're preaching to the choir.

However, in the secular realm of politics Jews, Muslims and others, do not believe that a pre-viable fetus is a person,
which should be protected under the constitution.[/quote]

Some liberal Jews are for abortion, most Muslims however are not and do not kill their young via abortion. The KKK and other white supremacists groups don't believe Blacks are protected persons, or persons at all. Does that mean lynching should be legal again? There are also black supremacist that believe whites are not protected persons, or persons at all. As well as other races, hating other races. Why don't we by your logic just make all murder legal? It would only be logical if we follow your logic.

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='19 July 2010 - 04:50 PM' timestamp='1279572605' post='2145077']So, the question again comes back, if you could write a law to make all abortions illegal, what would be the penalty?

Jim
[/quote]

Life in prison or the death penalty for the Abortionist. And emotional and mental rehab for most of the mothers.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='19 July 2010 - 04:50 PM' timestamp='1279572605' post='2145077']
KnightofChrist,
I agree with your essay, but in this forum, you're preaching to the choir.

However, in the secular realm of politics Jews, Muslims and others, do not believe that a pre-viable fetus is a person,
which should be protected under the constitution.


So, the question again comes back, if you could write a law to make all abortions illegal, what would be the penalty?

Jim
[/quote]
Oh this is an easy one.
The abortionist should, if he is convicted, face a sentence typical of murder in the first degree.
Any nurses or assistants, if convicted, should be considered accessories and sentenced accordingly.
The culpability and thus prosecution of the mother should be determined on a case-to-case basis, though, as there are typically extenuating circumstances, particularly if the mother is young or incapacitated in some way or so on.

[JimR-OCDS]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='19 July 2010 - 05:43 PM' timestamp='1279572225' post='2145074']
How come, after at least two or three other occasions of having this same, identical debate, do you continue to ignore us when we say repeatedly that
[size="5"]the fact that some people wouldn't like the law, or that it would present some practical difficulties has literally nothing at all to do with the morality of said law[/size]?

Your apparent desire for abortion to remain legal constitutes some form of support for and cooperation with murder. Remember, the last two or three times we had this debate, we proved to you conclusively and deductively that abortion is indeed murder from a foundation in Catholic morality.
[/quote]




The question in the OP was, "Should abortion be made illegal.

I'm asking;

If you think it should be made illegal, then provide how you would write a law which specifies the penalty for those who violate it?

If you think it should be made illegal, how do you get others to vote a law with the penalties you've prescribed ?

Sorry if my questions on the issue upsets you, but its the topic of this thread.



Jim

Edited July 19, 2010 by JimR-OCDS

[KnightofChrist]

The Laws against murder are already on the books, all need be done is to allow the Child personhood. Enforcing such laws require no votes, Murder is Murder no matter how small the victim.

[JimR-OCDS]

KnightofChrist


[i]Some liberal Jews are for abortion, most Muslims however are not and do not kill their young via abortion.

[/i]Pre-viable fetus, Jews except a minority, do not see abortion as immoral. Same is true for Muslims. Both groups, especially
Muslims oppose abortion after viability, where they believe ensoulment takes place


[i]The KKK and other white supremacists groups don't believe Blacks are protected persons, or persons at all. Does that mean lynching should be legal again? There are also black supremacist that believe whites are not protected persons, or persons at all. As well as other races, hating other races. Why don't we by your logic just make all murder legal? It would only be logical if we follow your logic.
[/i]
I'm talking about making law, not with extremist groups but with other elected officials in government.


[i]Life in prison or the death penalty for the Abortionist. And emotional and mental rehab for most of the mothers.

[/i]Do you think you could get such a law past, especially on 1st trimester abortions, before viability?

Jim

[JimR-OCDS]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' date='19 July 2010 - 05:57 PM' timestamp='1279573041' post='2145085']
Oh this is an easy one.
The abortionist should, if he is convicted, face a sentence typical of murder in the first degree.
Any nurses or assistants, if convicted, should be considered accessories and sentenced accordingly.
The culpability and thus prosecution of the mother should be determined on a case-to-case basis, though, as there are typically extenuating circumstances, particularly if the mother is young or incapacitated in some way or so on.
[/quote]


Problem is as I have already stated, others such as Jews and Muslims, don't believe as we do, that aborting an 8 week fetus is
murder.

So how are you going to get such a law passed?

Do you really think that fellow legislators would go for imprisoning a Jewish doctor, who performed an abortion on a pre-viable fetus?

Also, would you throw that doctor in jail, if the abortion he performed was to save the life of the mother?

Remember, they don't accepted Double Effect Principle as the Church teaches.


Jim