Abortion In The Usa

[Marie-Therese]

Just to make a general statement:

Elizabeth is one of our younger members, and enjoys discussing issues with other Catholics. While most of us might feel this is a topic on which most have well-formed opinions, let's remember that our young members like to ask questions too.

[Winchester]

[quote name='ThePenciledOne' date='11 July 2010 - 09:53 PM' timestamp='1278899592' post='2141429']
Alright bro.
[/quote]
I am glad to see you coming to your senses. You shall now become a feudal monarchist.

[ThePenciledOne]

[quote name='Winchester' date='11 July 2010 - 11:44 PM' timestamp='1278902689' post='2141445']
I am glad to see you coming to your senses. You shall now become a feudal monarchist.
[/quote]

Not on your life.

[Winchester]

[quote name='ThePenciledOne' date='11 July 2010 - 10:52 PM' timestamp='1278903144' post='2141450']
Not on your life.


[/quote]
God is a monarchist.

[ThePenciledOne]

[quote name='Winchester' date='11 July 2010 - 11:53 PM' timestamp='1278903213' post='2141451']
God is a monarchist.
[/quote]

We aren't in heaven yet.

Edited July 12, 2010 by ThePenciledOne

[Winchester]

We are in the Kingdom of God.

[ThePenciledOne]

I am done with this game, since we keep resetting the boundaries.

[Winchester]

Surrender accepted.


Again.

Edited July 12, 2010 by Winchester

[SaintOfVirtue]

[quote name='Winchester' date='11 July 2010 - 08:47 PM' timestamp='1278906428' post='2141495']
We are in the Kingdom of God.
[/quote]

His Kingdom is not of this world.

[Winchester]

[quote name='SaintOfVirtue' date='12 July 2010 - 03:15 PM' timestamp='1278962159' post='2141697']
His Kingdom is not of this world.


[/quote]
I didn't say it was. But we are within the kingdom of God and He seems to think quite highly of monarchy. I believe that bears a look.

Also, it's an effective and legitimate form of government, and feudalism provides a nice balance.

[Arco]

No, it's not.

Monarchy doesn't work because it makes a man God, vests in one person the existence of the state and the sovereignty of the people, and is a violent violation of nature.

[SaintOfVirtue]

[quote name='Winchester' date='13 July 2010 - 09:31 AM' timestamp='1279038706' post='2142072']
Also, it's an effective and legitimate form of government, and feudalism provides a nice balance.
[/quote]



Maybe if man was as perfect as God.

[Winchester]

[quote name='Arco' date='15 July 2010 - 12:46 PM' timestamp='1279212362' post='2142993']
No, it's not.

Monarchy doesn't work because it makes a man God, vests in one person the existence of the state and the sovereignty of the people, and is a violent violation of nature.
[/quote]
Monarchies fail for the same reasons as other governments, and that it the fallen nature of man. Monarchy does not make a god of man any more than the Church makes a god of the pope.

Are you arguing that the right to rule comes from the people? Which types of monarchies are violent violations of nature?

[Winchester]

[quote name='SaintOfVirtue' date='15 July 2010 - 01:13 PM' timestamp='1279214003' post='2143008']


Maybe if man was as perfect as God.
[/quote]
How is feudalism not effective as a means of curbing the power of a king? Or is this merely the prejudice of a believer in Western democracy, which is a child of the Enlightenment, which in its turn is a product of the Protestant Revolt?

[Arco]

[quote name='Winchester' date='15 July 2010 - 02:46 PM' timestamp='1279215992' post='2143021']
Monarchies fail for the same reasons as other governments, and that it the fallen nature of man. Monarchy does not make a god of man any more than the Church makes a god of the pope.

Are you arguing that the right to rule comes from the people? Which types of monarchies are violent violations of nature?
[/quote]

Let me see how well I can tease this out.

First, I agree with you right off the bat that monarchies fail because of the fallen nature of man, and that is precisely the crux of my argument: man is fallen, and man is not God. The problem with any monarchy that actually functions as such (this excludes virtually every modern European monarchy)is that it takes popular sovereignty -- the right of a society to govern itself -- and vests it into a single person who rules by decree ungoverned by law. It turns a man into the state, and surrounds him with scraping adoration. He is a god in all but name; he has power of life and death, and is no man's servant.

This is obviously a particular envisioning of monarchy, and not necessarily representative, but it is ultimately that to which monarchy is ordered: one man rules, and is not himself ruled. Because he is not ruled, because he has no constraints but those he himself accedes to, he is a god. But a man is not God, and can never be so. What we are left with then is a monster and a tyrant.

And yes, I do believe authority is ultimately based on the consent of the governed.