Eastern Catholic Churches Poised To Novus Ordoize Their Liturgies

[Seven77]

This could jeopardize the reunion of the Churches…

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='09 July 2010 - 06:47 PM' timestamp='1278712033' post='2140128']
Uh........ wait, what?
[/quote]

The way Vatican II intended it...

[MichaelFilo]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='09 July 2010 - 08:03 PM' timestamp='1278716629' post='2140168']
I am not worried about translation issues (except of course when the "translation" uses so-called gender neutral language); rather, what concerns me is the modernization of the liturgy in order to conform better to the needs of "modern man," whatever that loaded term means. In the end the modernization of the liturgies of the Eastern Catholic Churches will have a bad impact upon them internally, while also damaging ecumenical relations with the Eastern Orthodox who already think that the Roman Church and those associated with it (i.e., Eastern Catholics) are liturgical Protestants.
[/quote]

Translation is not on the list of the problems, because in the Middle Eastern rites, except for Aramaic, when used, all of it is in the tongue of the people.

I'm afraid they might change the order of the masses, and what the hell for? It was the only recourse for a Mass I could almost fully understand that wasn't the Novus Ordo.

Sigh.

[Gregorius]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' date='09 July 2010 - 09:02 PM' timestamp='1278723759' post='2140236']
The way Vatican II intended it...
[/quote]
[img]http://pw0nd.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/what-you-did-there-i-see-it.jpg[/img]

[Vincent Vega]

OMGolly CAN WE HAVE A DEBATE ON WHETHER THE NO OR TLM IS SUPERIOUR! I SO WANT TO SEE THAT!

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' date='09 July 2010 - 08:02 PM' timestamp='1278723759' post='2140236']
The way Vatican II intended it...
[/quote]
I still don't understand, but it makes a little more sense.

[Aloysius]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO


the Pope of Christian Unity better work his magic fast, because things like this make me seriously consider jumping ship for the East. who do these uniates think they are? what happened to delatinizing?

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='10 July 2010 - 01:48 PM' timestamp='1278784111' post='2140806']
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO


the Pope of Christian Unity better work his magic fast, because things like this make me seriously consider jumping ship for the East. who do these uniates think they are? what happened to delatinizing?
[/quote]
Werd. Papa Bene better make some "recommendations" and fast.

[Slappo]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' date='09 July 2010 - 06:02 PM' timestamp='1278723759' post='2140236']
The way Vatican II intended it...
[/quote]


aww come on now... that there is DISRESPECTFUL to the magisterium...

[ThePenciledOne]

I thought such things were organic, at least my experience with the Roman Catholic Church...

[Gregorius]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' date='09 July 2010 - 09:02 PM' timestamp='1278723759' post='2140236']
The way Vatican II intended it...
[/quote]
My first picture didn't load. Let's try it again:
[img]http://rlv.zcache.com/i_see_what_you_did_there_poster-p228060760404242422t5wm_400.jpg[/img]

[Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' date='09 July 2010 - 06:46 PM' timestamp='1278711965' post='2140126']
There's nothing wrong with going Novus Ordo with yo' liturgies.

There's been talk ever since Vatican II that the Latin Rite will implement Novus Ordo, but we don't see much of it in action.
[/quote]

Agreed. One time at dinner, one of the Jesuit priests we had over told my parents what Vatican II actually said and said that in the GIRM it says "turn and face the people and say" which implies that the priest is not normally facing the people. He then asked if this was what we normally experienced when we went to Mass and of course the answer was "No."

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='09 July 2010 - 06:47 PM' timestamp='1278712033' post='2140128']
Uh........ wait, what?
[/quote]

Read what the Council says about the Liturgy. Vatican II still calls for the preference of Latin in the Eucharistic Prayers and in other parts of the Mass and Greek for the Kyrie and assumes a preference for Chant (Paul VI and John XXIII's writings on Chant, how they should be used and how they benefit a liturgy are beautiful). It still even assumes an Ad Orientum position. However, it does not that while Christ is the center of the Mass and is the High Priest, nothing should hinder the faithful from a full and active participation in the Mass (while still keeping the Mother Tongue of Latin as the liturgical language). Initially this should have meant that the readings, Gospel, and Homily were in the vernacular but everything else pretty much stayed the same, but....you can see where it went from there; however, the will of the Spirit is God's will and God's will be done. This will come to pass, wait for it. It will happen, but all in God's time.

Edited July 11, 2010 by Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam

[MichaelFilo]

[quote name='Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam' date='11 July 2010 - 12:36 AM' timestamp='1278819374' post='2141056']
Read what the Council says about the Liturgy. Vatican II still calls for the preference of Latin in the Eucharistic Prayers and in other parts of the Mass and Greek for the Kyrie and assumes a preference for Chant (Paul VI and John XXIII's writings on Chant, how they should be used and how they benefit a liturgy are beautiful). It still even assumes an Ad Orientum position. However, it does not that while Christ is the center of the Mass and is the High Priest, nothing should hinder the faithful from a full and active participation in the Mass (while still keeping the Mother Tongue of Latin as the liturgical language). Initially this should have meant that the readings, Gospel, and Homily were in the vernacular but everything else pretty much stayed the same, but....you can see where it went from there; however, the will of the Spirit is God's will and God's will be done. This will come to pass, wait for it. It will happen, but all in God's time.
[/quote]

What if what we have today IS God's Will?

Sure, you can argue the wording and recommendations, but God has, from time to time, used the laity to change the Church when the heads of the Church have not. The Little Flower comes to mind, as does St. Francis. Liturgical reform has also come from the bottom up, with many places, at the time of the council of Trent, forming their own liturgical traditions. Equally so, the use of non-chant music was a bottom up phenomenon. It's hard to rule out that this is what God wants.

[Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam]

[quote name='MichaelFilo' date='11 July 2010 - 01:31 AM' timestamp='1278822665' post='2141094']
What if what we have today IS God's Will?

Sure, you can argue the wording and recommendations, but God has, from time to time, used the laity to change the Church when the heads of the Church have not. The Little Flower comes to mind, as does St. Francis. Liturgical reform has also come from the bottom up, with many places, at the time of the council of Trent, forming their own liturgical traditions. Equally so, the use of non-chant music was a bottom up phenomenon. It's hard to rule out that this is what God wants.
[/quote]

Ah yes. I'll give you the Chant stuff. Those were papal directives and letters issued after the council. That I could see kind of sticking around a bit but also possibly going. Either way. However, I think you would be hard pressed to say that what an Ecumenical Council laid out is not the will of God and still remain Catholic. I think somethings we have are the will of God but somethings are not. I think we are moving towards what God wanted to accomplish with the Second Vatican Council, liturgically. It will blend what we have now with the TLM (probably the use of some Latin and Greek and a focus on making the Mass Christ centered probably through the use of altar crosses since many churches today do not face east ). I see no other possibility. God's will be done.

Good to see you posting again

Edited July 11, 2010 by Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam

[Aloysius]

If God wills Christian worship to take on a completely different character than it had taken for 1900+ years in the East and the West, then God is fickle, and the incarnation was ineffective (as it should have brought about a Church which could offer perfect worship)...

that's not directed at the idea of non chant necessarily, it's directed at the Liturgical Crisis (Vatican's words not mine) that has nearly destroyed all right worship as it has been done since Christianity's inception. various small points can be argued, but there is no argument that what goes on in a significant portion (if not a majority) of the world's liturgies represents a huge rupture from the historical mindset of Christian worship.

in short, if God wills the current liturgical mindset(with anything other than his passive will permitting the free will of humanity), I'm going Buddhist because I'd rather have substantial spirituality.

Edited July 11, 2010 by Aloysius