Homosexual Orientation

[kafka]

A homosexual orientation is inherently disordered toward sexual acts which are instrinsically evil and always gravely immoral.

Thus there is no possible way that one's human nature could be created with a homosexual orientation. Since the human nature God has created is instrinsically good. The homosexual orientation must be a result of a human person making a decision to accept particular tendencies toward homosexual sins due to concupiscence, the evil influences of the world and perhaps the temptations of the fallen angels.

Homosexual orientation is a state of being based on a decision. It is a way of life. A mind set which is inherently disordered. A lack of goodness. God did not create this state. There is no possible way a soul-body-spirit; a human nature of a person could be created in this state. Anyone who says otherwise is in error. It is a lie.

And there is no possible way that one could call himself 'gay yet not practicing' and think himself justified. It is a contradiction and hypocrisy. A person doesnt call himself a non-practicing adulterer and think himself justified. By accepting the orientation one is disordered toward the sin and implicitly accepting the practice of the sin, and most probably accepting the false teachings that the intrinsically evil and gravely immoral acts are good or permitted for certain people or certain circumstances.

Either one accepts or rejects (or repents from) the orientation not to mention the acts and lives a new and different life called the Way of Christ. To me it is truly that simple. It might be difficult fighting the tendencies for a while, but God's grace, providence and will are sufficient in healing all grave evils. Prayer, self-denial and works of mercy will lead one to a new self. The sins with God's help become a distant and faint memory.

But if one accepts the state of orientation it seems to me that he is implicitly somewhere in his heart committing a grave interior sin.

A curse on the homosexual orientation and all the evils it causes in the Church and the world.

Anyone have additional light to shed? I am at war.

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='kafka' date='07 July 2010 - 07:44 PM' timestamp='1278549865' post='2139119']
A homosexual orientation is inherently disordered toward sexual acts which are instrinsically evil and always gravely immoral.

Thus there is no possible way that one's human nature could be created with a homosexual orientation. Since the human nature God has created is instrinsically good. The homosexual orientation must be a result of a human person making a decision to accept particular tendencies toward homosexual sins due to concupiscence, the evil influences of the world and perhaps the temptations of the fallen angels.

Homosexual orientation is a state of being based on a decision. It is a way of life. A mind set which is inherently disordered. A lack of goodness. God did not create this state. There is no possible way a soul-body-spirit; a human nature of a person could be created in this state. Anyone who says otherwise is in error. It is a lie.

And there is no possible way that one could call himself 'gay yet not practicing' and think himself justified. It is a contradiction and hypocrisy. A person doesnt call himself a non-practicing adulterer and think himself justified. By accepting the orientation one is disordered toward the sin and implicitly accepting the practice of the sin, and most probably accepting the false teachings that the intrinsically evil and gravely immoral acts are good or permitted for certain people or certain circumstances.

Either one accepts or rejects (or repents from) the orientation not to mention the acts and lives a new and different life called the Way of Christ. To me it is truly that simple. It might be difficult fighting the tendencies for a while, but God's grace, providence and will are sufficient in healing all grave evils. Prayer, self-denial and works of mercy will lead one to a new self. The sins with God's help become a distant and faint memory.

But if one accepts the state of orientation it seems to me that he is implicitly somewhere in his heart committing a grave interior sin.

A curse on the homosexual orientation and all the evils it causes in the Church and the world.

Anyone have additional light to shed? I am at war.
[/quote]

There is nothing immoral about having a predisposition toward same-sex attraction, of course. Only yielding to the temptations prompted by the predisposition is immoral. I have little doubt some people are predisposed to be attracted to the same sex, in the same way that some people are, to a greater or lesser degree, predisposed to certain character personalities by the temperaments. There's nothing wrong with "being sanguine," as long as one does not fall into the sins to which sanguines are prone.

~Sternhauser

[aalpha1989]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='07 July 2010 - 08:58 PM' timestamp='1278550713' post='2139121']
There is nothing immoral about having a predisposition toward same-sex attraction, of course. Only yielding to the temptations prompted by the predisposition is immoral. I have little doubt some people are predisposed to be attracted to the same sex, in the same way that some people are, to a greater or lesser degree, predisposed to certain character personalities by the temperaments. There's nothing wrong with "being sanguine," as long as one does not fall into the sins to which sanguines are prone.

~Sternhauser
[/quote]


There [i]is [/i]something wrong with same-sex attraction, it's just not necessarily sinful. It is inherently disordered, as Kafka said. It is not comparable to the temperaments, because they are simple personality differences.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='07 July 2010 - 06:58 PM' timestamp='1278550713' post='2139121']
There is nothing immoral about having a predisposition toward same-sex attraction, of course. Only yielding to the temptations prompted by the predisposition is immoral. I have little doubt some people are predisposed to be attracted to the same sex, in the same way that some people are, to a greater or lesser degree, predisposed to certain character personalities by the temperaments. There's nothing wrong with "being sanguine," as long as one does not fall into the sins to which sanguines are prone.

~Sternhauser
[/quote]
The homosexual inclination although not sinful in itself is a disorder and so it cannot be seen as morally neutral or worse as "a good."

See section no. 3 of the CDF document [url="http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19861001_homosexual-persons_en.html"][u]Homosexualitatis Problema[/u][/url].

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='07 July 2010 - 08:06 PM' timestamp='1278551161' post='2139124']
The homosexual inclination although not sinful in itself is a disorder and so it cannot be seen as morally neutral or worse as "a good."

See section no. 3 of the CDF document [url="http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19861001_homosexual-persons_en.html"][u]Homosexualitatis Problema[/u][/url].
[/quote]

Never claimed otherwise. Just wanted to clarify some points.

~Sternhauser

[CatherineM]

I have no doubt that some people are born with the inclination. I think of it like a birth defect.

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='aalpha1989' date='07 July 2010 - 08:01 PM' timestamp='1278550907' post='2139122']
There [i]is [/i]something wrong with same-sex attraction, it's just not necessarily sinful. It is inherently disordered, as Kafka said.
[/quote]

Of course there's something wrong with it on a natural level. Aren't you, as a fallen human being, prone to sin? Is that not unnatural and disordered, too? Aren't you prone to sins that are different from the sins other people are prone to? I never claimed that the predisposition to being attracted to the same sex was "natural." I did not mean there was "nothing wrong" in the sense of "a same-sex attraction is natural." I meant that in itself, the attraction is not [i]immoral. [/i]

[quote]It is not comparable to the temperaments, because they are simple personality differences.[/quote]

I don't think there's anything simple about the temperaments.

I believe having a strong predisposition toward a particular temperament is an imbalance, and that this imbalance is a result of the Fall. Christ himself was a perfect blend and balance of the temperaments: man at his best.

Is it not a life goal of a person who has the particular tendencies of a particular temperament to avoid the ills associated with his given temperament, and to strive to achieve the virtues proper to all the temperaments? (In other words, all virtues?) To achieve balance as a human being? Should not men and women strive to achieve the same virtues? Are courage, fortitude and valor undesirable traits in a woman? Are compassion, gentleness, and forgiveness undesirable traits in a man? Men and women have different strengths and weaknesses, but I wouldn't call the weaknesses "natural," or "ordered." Nor would I call these generally sex-specific predispositions to weaknesses "simple sex-linked personality differences." I would call them a divide between the sexes caused by the Fall, a divide we should spend our lives trying to bridge in our own lives, so we can become complete and whole [i]human persons.

[/i]Everyone has trim tabs they need to adjust to stay on the path to heaven. Let's acknowledge what is out of alignment, with charity, then focus on helping each other on that path to heaven. I think there's a strong tendency, even with the Church, to assign some extra "faux guilt" to people with [i]"particular[/i]" tendencies. Intemperate people such as alcoholics, wrathful people, and slothful people often seem to receive a blind eye, (the alcoholics getting unmerited [i]extra[/i] understanding, among many Catholics) while the real anger is saved up for people who struggle against other tendencies. That sort of thing needs to stop.
[i]
[/i]I'm all in favor of ensuring that people who suffer from certain predispositions do not live in denial, in order that sinful behavior can be changed. But that change has to come from within, and thus the effort must be made prudently and charitably, and not executed as though the individuals themselves are some enemy to be defeated.
[i]
[/i]~Sternhauser[i] [/i]

Edited July 8, 2010 by Sternhauser

[Hilde]

Is anyone here more updated than me(doesn't take a lot) on the DSM(or ICD?) and why homosexuality was removed? What about transsexualism?

[Sternhauser]

I have a problem with the way this was put.

"Homosexual orientation is a state of being based on a decision. It is a way of life. A mind set which is inherently disordered. A lack of goodness. God did not create this state. There is no possible way a soul-body-spirit; a human nature of a person could be created in this state. Anyone who says otherwise is in error. It is a lie.

And there is no possible way that one could call himself 'gay yet not practicing' and think himself justified"

That seems to be much like saying, "The disordered tendency/orientation toward sin is a state of being based on a decision. It is a way of life. A mindset which is inherently disordered. A lack of goodness. God did not create this state. There is no possible way a soul-body-spirit; a human nature of a person could be created in this state. Anyone who says otherwise is in error. It is a lie.

And there is no possible way that one could call himself 'a sinner, yet not practicing,' and think himself justified."

If "I am gay" means "I have a predisposition to being attracted to the same sex," it would probably be preferable to not deny that fact. It would be better to say, "I am a sinner who tries not to sin," than to say, "I am not a sinner."

[i] [/i]~Sternhauser[i] [/i]

Edited July 8, 2010 by Sternhauser

[Socrates]

[quote name='aalpha1989' date='07 July 2010 - 09:01 PM' timestamp='1278550907' post='2139122']
There [i]is [/i]something wrong with same-sex attraction, it's just not necessarily sinful. It is inherently disordered, as Kafka said. It is not comparable to the temperaments, because they are simple personality differences.
[/quote]
I'm with Aalpha (and Kafka)on this one.

As Cardinal Ratzinger said in the [url="http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19861001_homosexual-persons_en.html"]CDF LETTER TO THE BISHOPS OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH ON THE PASTORAL CARE OF HOMOSEXUAL PERSONS:[/url][quote]In the discussion which followed the publication of the Declaration, however, an overly benign interpretation was given to the homosexual condition itself, some going so far as to call it neutral, or even good. [b]Although the particular inclination of the homosexual person is not a sin, it is a more or less strong tendency ordered toward an intrinsic moral evil; and thus the inclination itself must be seen as an objective disorder.[/b]
[/quote]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='08 July 2010 - 12:24 AM' timestamp='1278563089' post='2139228']
Of course there's something wrong with it on a natural level. Aren't you, as a fallen human being, prone to sin? Is that not unnatural and disordered, too? Aren't you prone to sins that are different from the sins other people are prone to? I never claimed that the predisposition to being attracted to the same sex was "natural." I did not mean there was "nothing wrong" in the sense of "a same-sex attraction is natural." I meant that in itself, the attraction is not [i]immoral. [/i]



I don't think there's anything simple about the temperaments.

I believe having a strong predisposition toward a particular temperament is an imbalance, and that this imbalance is a result of the Fall. Christ himself was a perfect blend and balance of the temperaments: man at his best.

Is it not a life goal of a person who has the particular tendencies of a particular temperament to avoid the ills associated with his given temperament, and to strive to achieve the virtues proper to all the temperaments? (In other words, all virtues?) To achieve balance as a human being? Should not men and women strive to achieve the same virtues? Are courage, fortitude and valor undesirable traits in a woman? Are compassion, gentleness, and forgiveness undesirable traits in a man? Men and women have different strengths and weaknesses, but I wouldn't call the weaknesses "natural," or "ordered." Nor would I call these generally sex-specific predispositions to weaknesses "simple sex-linked personality differences." I would call them a divide between the sexes caused by the Fall, a divide we should spend our lives trying to bridge in our own lives, so we can become complete and whole [i]human persons.

[/i]Everyone has trim tabs they need to adjust to stay on the path to heaven. Let's acknowledge what is out of alignment, with charity, then focus on helping each other on that path to heaven. I think there's a strong tendency, even with the Church, to assign some extra "faux guilt" to people with [i]"particular[/i]" tendencies. Intemperate people such as alcoholics, wrathful people, and slothful people often seem to receive a blind eye, (the alcoholics getting unmerited [i]extra[/i] understanding, among many Catholics) while the real anger is saved up for people who struggle against other tendencies. That sort of thing needs to stop.
[i]
[/i]I'm all in favor of ensuring that people who suffer from certain predispositions do not live in denial, in order that sinful behavior can be changed. But that change has to come from within, and thus the effort must be made prudently and charitably, and not executed as though the individuals themselves are some enemy to be defeated.
[i]
[/i]~Sternhauser[i] [/i]
[/quote]
The Church teaches that homosexual inclinations are themselves disordered, being objectively in themselves ordered towards immoral and unnatural acts. They are sexual perversions.

The four temperaments, on the other hand, are not perversions, nor in themselves objectively disordered. Yes, people of different temperaments may be more inclined to different vices, but they are also inclined, if properly trained, to different virtues as well, and a melancholic or choleric temperament is not in itself objectively disordered or perverted in the way homosexual tendencies are.

Likewise, the differences in character between men and women are not in themselves objectively disordered or perverted in that way. God created men and women different, with different roles to play in a natural human society (roles which perversions like homosexuality oppose). I don't think women, for instance, are any less courageous than men, but I think the virtues naturally manifest themselves differently in the two sexes. There are manly and womanly forms of courage.
I don't think men and women would be more like each other in an unfallen world. If anything, I'd say the differences would be greater (certainly, at least, than in modern "neutered" society). There would just not be the concupiscence and tendency towards sin and vice.
Likewise, I don't think that all people would have the same temperament in an unfallen world; there wouldn't be tendency to sin and vice, but people would have greater strengths toward different virtues.

[quote] . . . while the real anger is saved up for people who struggle against other tendencies. That sort of thing needs to stop.[/quote]
I think the real anger is not towards those who [i]struggle against[/i] those tendencies, but who proudly and defiantly tout their disordered perversions (and their perverted activities) as good, and demand acceptance of and rewards for their perverted activities from society.
Alcoholics go to AA meetings to try to overcome their problems, while "gays" march in "pride parades." Therein lies the problem.

[Socrates]

[quote name='CatherineM' date='08 July 2010 - 12:21 AM' timestamp='1278562891' post='2139226']
I have no doubt that some people are born with the inclination. I think of it like a birth defect.
[/quote]
This assertion, while politically correct, is entirely unproven, and should not be assumed.

Even most secular experts I've read that aren't pushing a particular ideology say that human sexuality is influenced by a very complex interaction of factors in both nature and nurture.

I have no doubt that some people probably have more tendency to develop this perversion than others, but I seriously doubt anyone is "born gay."

I don't believe that "God makes some people gay," nor that homosexuality is a disorder that is impossible to cure (though it's usually very difficult).

[CatherineM]

[quote name='Socrates' date='08 July 2010 - 01:09 PM' timestamp='1278612563' post='2139368']
This assertion, while politically correct, is entirely unproven, and should not be assumed.

Even most secular experts I've read that aren't pushing a particular ideology say that human sexuality is influenced by a very complex interaction of factors in both nature and nurture.

I have no doubt that some people probably have more tendency to develop this perversion than others, but I seriously doubt anyone is "born gay."

I don't believe that "God makes some people gay," nor that homosexuality is a disorder that is impossible to cure (though it's usually very difficult).
[/quote]
I wasn't trying to be politically correct. Not based on science, just personal experience and observation. By being born with it, I visualize something similar to schizophrenia or bipolar. You can be born with the genetic predisposition and it takes something later in life, usually a stressor or chemical use, to trigger the full blown illness. I can visualize something similar for those with SSA. They have a genetic predisposition or an invitro hormonal imbalance that sets them up for a later transition. It's up to us as a society to nurture children in such a way that those who are predisposed don't go down the wrong path. Of course that's the case for lots of predispositions, like addiction or alcoholism or obesity. We seem to be failing kids across the board.

[Jaime]

[quote name='Socrates' date='08 July 2010 - 02:09 PM' timestamp='1278612563' post='2139368']
This assertion, while politically correct, is entirely unproven, and should not be assumed.

Even most secular experts I've read that aren't pushing a particular ideology say that human sexuality is influenced by a very complex interaction of factors in both nature and nurture.

I have no doubt that some people probably have more tendency to develop this perversion than others, but I seriously doubt anyone is "born gay."

I don't believe that "God makes some people gay," nor that homosexuality is a disorder that is impossible to cure (though it's usually very difficult).
[/quote]

I don't believe God makes some people gay either.

I also don't think God makes some people born with Down's Syndrome.

[Didymus]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='08 July 2010 - 03:25 PM' timestamp='1278617115' post='2139395']
I don't believe God makes some people gay either.

I also don't think God makes some people born with Down's Syndrome.
[/quote]


I agree completely. There are disorders of God's creation in the world as a result of the fall.

Also, as a comment to Kafka's original post, if a person suffering from a same sex attraction is practicing chastity and living a holy life, how can any one of us turn that around and claim they choose to accept their disorientation? Once you deny that the disorder can be in some way out of the control of the person, then you are essentially saying that it is impossible for someone with a homosexual disorder to be chaste and still be disordered sexually.

[Jaime]

[quote name='Didymus' date='08 July 2010 - 03:46 PM' timestamp='1278618402' post='2139410']
I agree completely. There are disorders of God's creation in the world as a result of the fall.

Also, as a comment to Kafka's original post, if a person suffering from a same sex attraction is practicing chastity and living a holy life, how can any one of us turn that around and claim they choose to accept their disorientation? Once you deny that the disorder can be in some way out of the control of the person, then you are essentially saying that it is impossible for someone with a homosexual disorder to be chaste and still be disordered sexually.
[/quote]

Didy!! Good to see you!!

[quote name='hot stuff' date='08 July 2010 - 03:25 PM' timestamp='1278617115' post='2139395']
I don't believe God makes some people gay either.

I also don't think God makes some people born with Down's Syndrome.
[/quote]

Apparently someone disagrees with us Didy and thinks God does make some people born with Down's syndrome.