Cutting Off The Pope's Nose

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='02 July 2010 - 04:51 PM' timestamp='1278107515' post='2137089']
I know in Quebec words like [i]chalice[/i] and [i]tabernacle[/i] are used in the same manner as certain four-letter words are in the United States.
[/quote]

Huh? Wow, I've never heard of anything like that, and can't imagine those words used that way.

Is there a way that you can give an example, without being too inappropriate? I can't even think of a context where those words could replace 4-letter words.

Edited July 2, 2010 by IgnatiusofLoyola

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='IgnatiusofLoyola' date='02 July 2010 - 06:39 PM' timestamp='1278113968' post='2137146']
Huh? Wow, I've never heard of anything like that, and can't imagine those words used that way.

Is there a way that you can give an example, without being too inappropriate? I can't even think of a context where those words could replace 4-letter words.
[/quote]
I've heard the same thing, although I've also not heard specifics. Just the way that Quebec French (unfortunately) works, certain religious terms are used as blasphemous profanity. Same way an English speaking person might yell "Jesus Christ" offensively.

Edited July 2, 2010 by Nihil Obstat

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='02 July 2010 - 06:49 PM' timestamp='1278114585' post='2137151']
I've heard the same thing, although I've also not heard specifics. Just the way that Quebec French (unfortunately) works, certain religious terms are used as blasphemous profanity. Same way an English speaking person might yell "Jesus Christ" offensively.
[/quote]

I don't think it would necessarily be [i]blasphemous[/i] to shout "Paten!" as an expletive. Irreverent, yes. Blasphemous, probably not.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='02 July 2010 - 08:03 PM' timestamp='1278118986' post='2137185']
I don't think it would necessarily be [i]blasphemous[/i] to shout "Paten!" as an expletive. Irreverent, yes. Blasphemous, probably not.
[/quote]
Good call. I guess it depends on specifically what you're saying. For instance, I've heard that something to do with the Virgin Mary is used as a curse.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='02 July 2010 - 08:09 PM' timestamp='1278119342' post='2137187']
Good call. I guess it depends on specifically what you're saying. For instance, I've heard that something to do with the Virgin Mary is used as a curse.
[/quote]

If someone just said "Mary, Mother of God!" as an expletive, it would probably just be a sin of irreverence and a venial sin. That said, if someone added certain adjectives to that, it could very quickly become a sin of blasphemy and a mortal sin.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='02 July 2010 - 08:13 PM' timestamp='1278119604' post='2137188']
If someone just said "Mary, Mother of God!" as an expletive, it would probably just be a sin of irreverence and a venial sin. That said, if someone added certain adjectives to that, it could very quickly become a sin of blasphemy and a mortal sin.
[/quote]
I know two curse words in French, and luckily neither of them are religious in origin.

[MIKolbe]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='02 July 2010 - 09:13 PM' timestamp='1278119604' post='2137188']
If someone just said "Mary, Mother of God!" as an expletive, it would probably just be a sin of irreverence and a venial sin.
[/quote]
wrong again.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='MIkolbe' date='02 July 2010 - 09:17 PM' timestamp='1278123479' post='2137206']
wrong again.
[/quote]

Well, that's what the authors of the moral theology books I've read think. If you want to find a more qualified opinion, be my guest.

[Luigi]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='02 July 2010 - 09:13 PM' timestamp='1278119604' post='2137188']
If someone just said "Mary, Mother of God!" as an expletive, it would probably just be a sin of irreverence and a venial sin. That said, if someone added certain adjectives to that, it could very quickly become a sin of blasphemy and a mortal sin.
[/quote]

I used to work with a very old nun from Ireland. She used Holy Mother of Justice! as an exclamation.

[Luigi]

If something astounding happened, Grandma would react with, "Well, it's a first class miracle!" Less astounding but still praiseworthy events were only "minor miracles." If some child (never her own grandchildren, of course) was being very bad, she'd declare emphatically, "He's a limb of Satan!"

[sistersintigo]

[quote name='Luigi' date='03 July 2010 - 02:27 AM' timestamp='1278134842' post='2137272']
If something astounding happened, Grandma would react with, "Well, it's a first class miracle!" Less astounding but still praiseworthy events were only "minor miracles." If some child (never her own grandchildren, of course) was being very bad, she'd declare emphatically, "He's a limb of Satan!"
[/quote]
And she also said "cutting off the Pope's nose."
So, a thoroughly Catholic grandmother, and I am wondering about the national/ethnic factor. Were her ancestors from Ireland? Italy? Also, were they city people or farmers? Those factors would contribute to certain colorful ways of expressing oneself in words.

[Luigi]

[quote name='sistersintigo' date='03 July 2010 - 11:33 AM' timestamp='1278171230' post='2137346']
And she also said "cutting off the Pope's nose."
So, a thoroughly Catholic grandmother, and I am wondering about the national/ethnic factor. Were her ancestors from Ireland? Italy? Also, were they city people or farmers? Those factors would contribute to certain colorful ways of expressing oneself in words.
[/quote]

Mostly French, and completely urban.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='02 July 2010 - 05:51 PM' timestamp='1278107515' post='2137089']
I know in Quebec words like [i]chalice[/i] and [i]tabernacle[/i] are used in the same manner as certain four-letter words are in the United States.
[/quote]
This is not an uncommon thing, and it is not found solely in French. Zounds, sblood, snails, freaking, and heck are all examples of this phenomenon, known as a minced oath. It's a way to "get around" breaking the second commandment while still expressing disdain or anger or whathaveyou.

[MIKolbe]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='02 July 2010 - 10:53 PM' timestamp='1278125600' post='2137220']
Well, that's what the authors of the moral theology books I've read think. If you want to find a more qualified opinion, be my guest.
[/quote]
when my daughters where born I said, "Mary, Mother of God". Interesting... I guess you and them smart book people are correct.

But you know all about children being born and becoming a parent. Silly me.

Feel free to tap dance around that, chump.

[sistersintigo]

[quote name='IgnatiusofLoyola' date='02 July 2010 - 06:36 PM' timestamp='1278106572' post='2137075']
That makes me feel better, because I HAVE heard the saying about cutting off your nose to spite your face, but I've never never heard anything about cutting off the Pope's nose. As for it being a phrase only a "cradle Catholic" would know, why would a Catholic want to cut off the Pope's nose?

Also, comparing the Pope's nose to a part of a chicken near the hind end doesn't sound very respectful.
[/quote]

Luigi responded to my inquiry about his grandmother's ancestors, saying they were French.
Well, Rabelais was French, and he could be MOST irreverent especially where the church was concerned. Out of context, the above saying does take one by surprise. Restore the south-west Europe context, with its centuries of Catholicism as a state religion, and such irreverence and humor takes a natural place.
Remember, the French have a kind of pendulum swing going on, regarding religion. For centuries France was "the daughter of the Church," with excessive religiosity if anything. Then the inevitable swing of the pendulum resulted in the Revolution and the anti-clerical excesses of its regime. The man in the street, so to speak, struggles to survive the rip-tides of these extreme movements. Hence, the humor, in the privacy of the kitchen.