Eastern Catholic Understanding Of Mary

[Selah]

I know that the Eastern Catholic Church views Original sin differently, in an almost Orthodox sense.

That we are "mortal" because of the fall, and that is called "ancestral sin". We are not guilty of Adam and Eve's sin, but it still has left us mortal.

Christ came to free us from this curse and make us immortal.

So, Mary would not be immaculate, would she? If that is the case, does an Eastern Catholic simply view her as not crippled by ancestral sin? That she was immortal, rather than mortal as we are?

Thanks

Selah+

[Laudate_Dominum]

The feast of the Immaculate Conception in the West is actually an import from the East. You're right that Eastern Orthodox Christians do not accept the Roman Catholic theological formulation that was elevated to the level of dogma back in 1854. The Orthodox do, however, say that Mary is [i]achrantos[/i] (immaculate) and panagia (all-holy), and that she was sanctified in the Holy Spirit from her conception (well, some would refuse to speculate). Kallistos Ware talks about it in [i]The Orthodox Church[/i] for instance, but in my personal experience there seem to be different "takes" among Orthodox Christians and Eastern Catholics.

[quote]That she was immortal, rather than mortal as we are?[/quote]
No. I don't believe that Orthodox Christians would say that Mary was conceived in immortality or in a way exempt from the ancestral sin. Perhaps that she never committed personal sins, and even that she was sanctified at conception, but in an Orthodox theological context denying Mary participation in the ancestral sin would be problematic. Still, I believe there is a range of theological opinion on this within Orthodoxy. I've read Orthodox authors who contradict on this in any case. Personal sin, no personal sin; sanctified here, sanctified there; refuse to speculate. At least many uber awesome titles are enshrined in the liturgy and in many epic hymns.

As for Eastern Catholics, I'd speculate that you could find an even broader range of views. I've personally known Eastern Catholics who had no problem with the Roman dogma and even practiced Western devotions related to the Immaculate Conception (such as wearing the miraculous medal). Some will say that this is latinization and corruption probably rooted in ignorance. The person I'm thinking of though, was neither ignorant nor particularly latinized (liturgical encroachments are one thing but private devotion? I think not). As an aside I once met an Orthodox priest who had a devotion to Our Lady of Guadalupe. hehe.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='27 June 2010 - 11:54 AM' timestamp='1277661249' post='2134948']
The feast of the Immaculate Conception in the West is actually an import from the East.
[/quote]
Actually the feast of the Conception of St. Anne originated in the East. The term "immaculate conception" is no where to be found in the texts of the Greek Fathers or in the Byzantine liturgy. Mary is call "immaculate" and "all holy" but these terms can be applied to her proleptically. Byzantine liturgical texts are replete with this type of proleptic discourse.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Selah' date='27 June 2010 - 11:13 AM' timestamp='1277658822' post='2134933']
That we are "mortal" because of the fall, and that is called "ancestral sin". We are not guilty of Adam and Eve's sin, but it still has left us mortal.[/quote]
This is the common position in the East, i.e., that - by his sin - Adam made all human beings mortal, and so Christ primarily comes to free mankind from death, and that by destroying death He also effaces sin.

Edited June 27, 2010 by Apotheoun

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='27 June 2010 - 02:10 PM' timestamp='1277662240' post='2134955']
Actually the feast of the Conception of St. Anne originated in the East. The term "immaculate conception" is no where to be found in the texts of the Greek Fathers or in the Byzantine liturgy. Mary is call "immaculate" and "all holy" but these terms can be applied to her proleptically. Byzantine liturgical texts are replete with this type of proleptic discourse.[/quote]
Obviously the Roman Catholic feast did not originate in the East, but yes, the Conception of St. Anne in the Church of Syria, and the Byzantine feast of the Conception of Mary (similar to the Conception of St. John the Baptist). And if one cares that much about the history of the feast -- which is not really what her question was about -- it could be pointed out that the Roman Catholic feast was not without controversy. The I.C. doctrinal disputes among the medievals were largely prompted by the feast and liturgical texts; major figures argued against the feast and the doctrinal ideas (including Bernard and Thomas). But the fact remains that it was an eastern feast that was incorporated by the West and given a life of its own, while in the east it was perhaps diminished in some respects. I don't want to have to dig up my Scheeben and Carol so I'll just quote Forrest Gump.

[i]And that's all I have to say about that.[/i]

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='27 June 2010 - 11:54 AM' timestamp='1277661249' post='2134948']
Personal sin, no personal sin; sanctified here, sanctified there; refuse to speculate. [/quote]
This is true . . . there are a variety of opinions among the Orthodox on the issue of whether or not Mary sinned in her earthly life. Nevertheless the majority opinion among Orthodox Christians is that the Theotokos never committed any personal sins, of course with some notable exceptions, e.g., St. John Chrysostom, who held that Mary committed minor sins during her lifetime.

Neither position, in the final analysis, is condemned within Eastern Orthodoxy, but the former position is favored by most theologians and by most of the members of the hierarchy and the laity.

Edited June 27, 2010 by Apotheoun

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='27 June 2010 - 02:24 PM' timestamp='1277663061' post='2134963']
This is true . . . there are a variety of opinions among the Orthodox on the issue of whether or not Mary sinned in her earthly life. Nevertheless the majority opinion among Orthodox Christians is that the Theotokos never committed any personal sins, of course with some notable exceptions, e.g., St. John Chrysostom, who held that Mary committed minor sins during her lifetime.

Neither position, in the final analysis, is condemned within Eastern Orthodoxy, but the former position is favored by most theologians and by most of the members of the hierarchy and the laity.
[/quote]
Good to know. Thank you!

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='27 June 2010 - 12:23 PM' timestamp='1277663028' post='2134961']
Obviously the Roman Catholic feast did not originate in the East, but yes, the Conception of St. Anne in the Church of Syria, and the Byzantine feast of the Conception of Mary (similar to the Conception of St. John the Baptist). And if one cares that much about the history of the feast -- which is not really what her question was about -- it could be pointed out that the Roman Catholic feast was not without controversy. The I.C. doctrinal disputes among the medievals were largely prompted by the feast and liturgical texts; major figures argued against the feast and the doctrinal ideas (including Bernard and Thomas). But the fact remains that it was an eastern feast that was incorporated by the West and given a life of its own, while in the east it was perhaps diminished in some respects. I don't want to have to dig up my Scheeben and Carol so I'll just quote Forrest Gump.

[i]And that's all I have to say about that.[/i]
[/quote]
Well said! I would only quibble with the notion that the feast in the East has been "diminished in some respects." To my knowledge it is quite an important feast even if one does not accept the notion of the [i]immaculate conception[/i].

[Apotheoun]

On a side note, the feast of the Conception of St. Anne in the Byzantine calendar falls on December 9.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='27 June 2010 - 12:27 PM' timestamp='1277663227' post='2134964']
Good to know. Thank you!
[/quote]
BTW you can confirm this with Chelsea if you want another source.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='27 June 2010 - 03:38 PM' timestamp='1277667482' post='2135001']
BTW you can confirm this with Chelsea if you want another source.
[/quote]
I believe you.


Although, an excuse to chat with Chelsea is a welcome thing.

[Oik]

A concise and recent Orthodox Catholic view of the Holy Lady Theotokos vis-à-vis the Immaculate Conception taught in Roman Catholicism can be found in a text entitled "The Orthodox Veneration of Mary the Birthgiver of God" written by St John Maximovitch and translated by Blessed Seraphim Rose.

Edited June 28, 2010 by Oik

[Oik]

dble pst

Edited June 28, 2010 by Oik

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Oik' date='28 June 2010 - 07:17 PM' timestamp='1277767040' post='2135529']
dble pst
[/quote]



dble pst ftw