"approved" Apparitions

[marielapin]

This is what EWTN has to say about Medj. And it is interesting to note, that the "apparition gatherings" I wrote about earlier occur within a very short distance of the location of EWTN itself.

http://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/medjugorje.htm

[Jaime]

[quote name='marielapin' date='27 June 2010 - 12:14 PM' timestamp='1277655273' post='2134911']
This is what EWTN has to say about Medj. And it is interesting to note, that the "apparition gatherings" I wrote about earlier occur within a very short distance of the location of EWTN itself.

[url="http://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/medjugorje.htm"]http://www.ewtn.com/.../medjugorje.htm[/url]
[/quote]

No I meant about the visit of the visionary that you talk about. I'd like to see a link about that

[Crispy]

It is often hard to find good information about Medjugorje. Here is an excellent article written by Dr. Mark Miravalle, a theology professor at Franciscan University of Steubenville. It is a bit lengthy, but very thorough. It addresses some common concerns people have raised about Medjugorje. As one who initially was leery of the whole phenomenon but later changed my opinion, I recommend this thoughtful and theologically sound article.

[url="http://www.medjugorje.ws/en/articles/medjugorje-real/"]Is Medjugorje Real? by Dr. Mark Miravalle[/url]

[marielapin]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='27 June 2010 - 11:11 AM' timestamp='1277655065' post='2134910']
I'd like to read something about that. Could you provide a link?
[/quote]

No problem. Here are some different links you may find interesting. I must admit I was mistaken. I thought that the bishop had formally condemned the group. He has not. He has however said that Caritas is not a Roman Catholic organization and is not associated with the diocese. He also forbids priests from saying Mass there.

http://blog.al.com/living-news/2008/07/medjugorje_visionary_may_stay.html

http://blog.al.com/living-news/2009/07/marija_lunetti_gone_from_alaba.html

Even folks on a Medj. website distance themselves from Caritas of Birmingham and cite EWTN's disapproval. Yet my question is, why would she continue to visit there (she's been there at least twice just to have the huge apparition gatherings) when it is obviously has the disapproval of folks in her own community (because of the allegations of scandal) and is far from being approved by the local bishop? Seeing that she is a face of the apparitions, she should be using discretion in order to keep the message of Medj from scandal. It makes me very wary, and if I were a part of the Medj devotion, it would make me even more so.

http://www.medjugorje.ws/en/articles/caritas-of-birmingham/


Information about Caritas of Birmingham.

http://covenantcommunities.blogspot.com/2007/01/covenant-communities-caritas.html

http://www.rickross.com/groups/caritas.html


This is Caritas' own website that they advertise on their apparition billboards:

http://www.medjugorje.com/

Edited June 27, 2010 by marielapin

[marielapin]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='27 June 2010 - 11:21 AM' timestamp='1277655661' post='2134914']
No I meant about the visit of the visionary that you talk about. I'd like to see a link about that
[/quote]

When I posted this I had not seen your post asking for links. Sorry for the confusion.

[Guest KevinSymonds]

Marielapin, I used to live in Cullman.

It is not true to say that the Church waits until the alleged phenomena have stopped before the Church renders a judgment.

Though a technical distinction must be made between a positive and a negative judgment.

The local Ordinary (epis. conf. or Rome, if the case merits the intervention of these) may [i]not[/i] render a positive judgment while the alleged phenomena is still occurring. He may render a negative judgment while said phenomena is ongoing.

The reason is the protection of faith and good morals.

If it is a case (as someone dutifully noted above) where it is obviously false, then the local Ordinary may denounce it--and quick. He ought to do so, in fact. We see this in the recent case of Holy Love Ministries in Ohio.

In not so certain cases, well, prudence dictates a "wait" approach, unless clear negative signs manifest.

-KJS

[marielapin]

[quote name='KevinSymonds' date='27 June 2010 - 11:59 AM' timestamp='1277657954' post='2134927']
Marielapin, I used to live in Cullman.

It is not true to say that the Church waits until the alleged phenomena have stopped before the Church renders a judgment.

Though a technical distinction must be made between a positive and a negative judgment.

The local Ordinary (epis. conf. or Rome, if the case merits the intervention of these) may [i]not[/i] render a positive judgment while the alleged phenomena is still occurring. He may render a negative judgment while said phenomena is ongoing.

The reason is the protection of faith and good morals.

If it is a case (as someone dutifully noted above) where it is obviously false, then the local Ordinary may denounce it--and quick. He ought to do so, in fact. We see this in the recent case of Holy Love Ministries in Ohio.

In not so certain cases, well, prudence dictates a "wait" approach, unless clear negative signs manifest.

-KJS
[/quote]


Yes, you are right, I forgot to mention this distinction. Thanks for correcting me!

[Jaime]

[quote name='Crispy' date='27 June 2010 - 12:47 PM' timestamp='1277657230' post='2134920']
It is often hard to find good information about Medjugorje. Here is an excellent article written by Dr. Mark Miravalle, a theology professor at Franciscan University of Steubenville. It is a bit lengthy, but very thorough. It addresses some common concerns people have raised about Medjugorje. As one who initially was leery of the whole phenomenon but later changed my opinion, I recommend this thoughtful and theologically sound article.

[url="http://www.medjugorje.ws/en/articles/medjugorje-real/"]Is Medjugorje Real? by Dr. Mark Miravalle[/url]
[/quote]

That's a good article.

[Guest KevinSymonds]

I think that's the same article from Miravalle that I read some time ago.

I disagree with Miravalle as he does not take into consideration the entire story. Also, he has been known to publicly twist the facts (knowingly or not, I make no judgment).

One place where Miravalle is in clear error, he states:

"[i]The messages of Medjugorje do not contain a single doctrinal teaching that contradicts authentic Catholic Magisterial teaching[/i]."

Take the following statement of the "Gospa" from 24 July 1982:

"The body, drawn from the earth, decomposes after death. It never comes back to life again. Man receives a transfigured body"*

Compare the above with [url="http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/lateran4.html"]Canon 1 of the IV Lateran Council[/url]:

"He will come at the end of the world to judge the living and the dead and will render to the reprobate and to the elect according to their works. Who all shall rise with their own bodies which they now have that they may receive according to their merits, whether good or bad, the latter eternal punishment with the devil, the former eternal glory with Christ."

For those who like punishment, the Latin text of this canon is:

"[i]Qui omnes cum suis propriis corporibus resurgent quae nunc gestant ut recipiant[/i] secundum merita sua sive bona fuerint sive mala illi cum diabolo poenam perpetuam et isti cum Christo gloriam sempiternam."



*Source: Fr. Rene Laurentin & Rene Lejeune, [i]Messages and Teachings of Mary at Medjugorje[/i]. (The Riehle Foundation: Milford, 1988), 189.

I recommend Donal Anthony Foley's book "[url="http://www.theotokos.org.uk/pages/books/medjbook/medjboo1.html"]Understanding Medjugorje[/url]" for some good background material.

-KJS

Edited June 27, 2010 by KevinSymonds

[Chiquitunga]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='27 June 2010 - 12:07 PM' timestamp='1277658435' post='2134931']
That's a good article.
[/quote]
I agree! It's also here on his site, [url="http://www.motherofallpeoples.com/articles/marian-private-revelation/is-medjugorje-real-facts-and-first-hand-accounts.html"][i]Is Medjugorje Real?[/i][/url] Personally, I trust his discernment on these things, though obviously we leave everything to the final decision of the Church. There is a new Vatican commission investigating it now.

On another note, have any of you heard of the apparitions of Our Lady Mediatrix of All Grace to the Carmelite postulant Sr. Teresita in Lipa, Philippines? Apparently it was banned for something like 50 years like the Divine Mercy devotion, but is now approved. An article on Dr. Maraville's site about it .. [url="http://www.motherofallpeoples.com/articles/marian-private-revelation/our-lady-of-lipa-mediatrix-of-all-grace.html"]http://www.motherofa...-all-grace.html[/url] And a couple videos .. [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N52MZzT5I9s"]http://www.youtube.c...h?v=N52MZzT5I9s[/url] .. [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lrf3YHn71uE"]http://www.youtube.c...h?v=Lrf3YHn71uE[/url]

I read somewhere online that Sr. Teresita had to leave the Carmel after only a couple years there, when the apparition was deemed a hoax. She lived in the world the rest of her life and never married, though she adopted a daughter and named her Grace. I thought that was beautiful since Our Lady came to her as Mediatrix of All Grace.

[Jaime]

[quote name='KevinSymonds' date='27 June 2010 - 01:25 PM' timestamp='1277659504' post='2134938']
I think that's the same article from Miravalle that I read some time ago.

I disagree with Miravalle as he does not take into consideration the entire story. Also, he has been known to publicly twist the facts (knowingly or not, I make no judgment).
[/quote]

Well if he's publicly twisted things, that should be easy to cite and link

[marielapin]

J aime, I posted the links you were asking for, but they ended up on the first page and I was afraid you might miss them. If nothing else, they should provide names that you can use to do further research.

Edited June 27, 2010 by marielapin

[the_rev]

[quote name='marielapin' date='27 June 2010 - 12:04 PM' timestamp='1277654689' post='2134908']
I know that one of the visionaries of Medj. comes and visits a heterox "Catholic" cult not too far from where I currently live (it's in my old hometown). From that location, they have hugely advertized public "apparition" gatherings (complete with street billboards and everything, hundreds of miles from the actual event location). Technically she's the only one to see Mary, but thousands of people come to pray and listen to her and just be there when the scheduled apparition occurs. This raises so many flags to me, specifically the choice of location in a cult community formally stripped of it's association with Catholicism by the bishop.
[/quote]

The visionary that visits Caritas in Birmingham is Marija (I believe). I've been told that Marija goes to Birmingham not because she wants to but because she feels obligated to do so. One of her relatives, maybe her brother, had to have a major surgery and the people at Caritas paid for the entire surgery if it was done in America. Out of gratitude for their generosity she comes, but from what I understand her coming to Birmingham each year is really against her own wishes and that it is done out of obligation more than anything.

[Jaime]

[quote name='marielapin' date='27 June 2010 - 01:47 PM' timestamp='1277660848' post='2134946']
J aime, I posted the links you were asking for, but they ended up on the first page and I was afraid you might miss them. If nothing else, they should provide names that you can use to do further research.
[/quote]

Marielapin, I read your links.

I'm asking Kevin to provide the links of where the professor twisted facts publicly.

[marielapin]

[quote name='the_rev' date='27 June 2010 - 12:56 PM' timestamp='1277661413' post='2134950']
The visionary that visits Caritas in Birmingham is Marija (I believe). I've been told that Marija goes to Birmingham not because she wants to but because she feels obligated to do so. One of her relatives, maybe her brother, had to have a major surgery and the people at Caritas paid for the entire surgery if it was done in America. Out of gratitude for their generosity she comes, but from what I understand her coming to Birmingham each year is really against her own wishes and that it is done out of obligation more than anything.
[/quote]

That may be so, but visiting for medical purposes out of obligation and having hugely advertised gatherings at that site are different. I posted a few links on the previous page that go into more details, including views from some priests in Medj who distance themselves from this organization.