Distrust In Self; Trust In God.

[Innocent]

I'd be very grateful if anyone could give me some insight on this matter. It has been confusing me for some time now.

I have read in the works of many Catholic authors (Dom Lorenzo Scupoli, St. Teresa of Avila, St. John Cassian, Fr. F.W. Faber, etc.) that one of the foundational principles of Catholic ascesis is "Distrust in self (along with an abiding sorrow for sin) and simultaneous trust in Divine Providence."

But here's the problem:

1. If I don't co-operate with Providence, I can fall out of friendship and intimacy with God easily.

2. But my distrust in self, which comes from knowledge about original sin and also my personal experience of my sinfulness, includes the fact that I realise that I can never be fully confident of my ability to co-operate with the God's grace. (I recall that St. Augustine too devoted a few passages in the Confessions (Bk 10, ch. 5) to say that he could not be sure of how he would hold up against.)

3. Also, strenuous ascesis is required to co-operate with Providence and to grow in virtue and deepen one's communion with God but at the same time, a single moment of slackening of spiritual watchfulness (thus causing willfulness and turning away from co-operating with God's grace) could result in destroying the fruits of several years of moral effort.

Given all this, how can one avoid despair and how does one hold on to the virtue of hope?


I hope I have stated the issue clearly.

[TeresaBenedicta]

This is just some of my own personal musings on the subject. I'm certainly no authority at all.

There is a certain good that is in 'distrust in self' because it acknowledges something that is very important: the distinction between us and God, between creature and God. One of my favorite quotes is from St. Catherine of Sienna, when she asked who God is and He replied to her, "I am He who Is, and you are she who is not." 'Distrust in self' is also good in that it highlights our inability to bring ourselves to God, to perfect ourselves, to do any meritorious good. We can't do it by ourselves. If we trust solely on our own powers, we are sure to fail.

A healthy 'distrust of self' should also lead to a healthy, even saintly or heroic, trust in God. Realizing our weakness, we come on our knees to Him who is our strength. "When I am weak, I am made strong" as St. Paul says. We ask God for His help, we abandon everything at His feet, giving all of ourselves over to Him. We realize that without God's goodness and grace, we are absolutely nothing. So instead we trust Him completely.

I know for myself, I've often gotten to the point where it's like, "Yes God, I trust in You... but I don't trust myself. I don't trust myself to know that I'm actually doing Your will right now. What if I'm missing something? etc"

I think it's at those points that an even greater trust in God is called for-- a trust that He works in our human weaknesses, a trust that is deeper than our distrust of self. It almost makes the trust in God more meaningful, when there's a lack of self-trust, but you go with what you think is God's will anyway.

Of course, with all of this, I think it's very important to have a spiritual director with whom you can speak to about these things. Part of being able to overcome an unhealthy distrust of self is obedience. But from my own personal musings, I think that 'distrust of self' is only truly healthy in the spiritual life when it leads to a greater trust in God.

[Ziggamafu]

[quote name='Innocent' date='24 June 2010 - 08:43 AM' timestamp='1277383395' post='2133593']
I'd be very grateful if anyone could give me some insight on this matter. It has been confusing me for some time now.

I have read in the works of many Catholic authors (Dom Lorenzo Scupoli, St. Teresa of Avila, St. John Cassian, Fr. F.W. Faber, etc.) that one of the foundational principles of Catholic ascesis is "Distrust in self (along with an abiding sorrow for sin) and simultaneous trust in Divine Providence."

But here's the problem:

1. If I don't co-operate with Providence, I can fall out of friendship and intimacy with God easily.

2. But my distrust in self, which comes from knowledge about original sin and also my personal experience of my sinfulness, includes the fact that I realise that I can never be fully confident of my ability to co-operate with the God's grace. (I recall that St. Augustine too devoted a few passages in the Confessions (Bk 10, ch. 5) to say that he could not be sure of how he would hold up against.)

3. Also, strenuous ascesis is required to co-operate with Providence and to grow in virtue and deepen one's communion with God but at the same time, a single moment of slackening of spiritual watchfulness (thus causing willfulness and turning away from co-operating with God's grace) could result in destroying the fruits of several years of moral effort.

Given all this, how can one avoid despair and how does one hold on to the virtue of hope?


I hope I have stated the issue clearly.
[/quote]


In a way, I think the answer to your question is contained within your own post. The facts are these: Our God is Love itself, and this Love is omnipotent and omniscient. Let that sink in for a moment. Now, this omnibenevolent God of grace and mercy created you - you, individually - specifically because He loves you, and wants you to spend eternity with Him (even if He knows you might choose otherwise). So merciful and inspirational is this Almighty Love Who guides and sculpts our world that He actually reveals to us that it is a [i]sin [/i]to despair. Not just a sin, but a grave sin that is mortal if fully deliberate. How backwards would it be to believe all of this and then worry about being damned no matter where you turn (i.e. presumption vs despair)?

The point is to love God with everything you've got - to simply do your practical best - and leave the rest to a confident hope in God's merciful, all-powerful, and loving grace. If you do that, you will indeed be simultaneously distrusting self and instead trusting in God. Because in putting your faith in this mercy of God, you are trusting Him and not yourself. You are not guilty of presumption because you are actively loving God with faithful and hopeful love (you're not trying to pull the wool over God's eyes and you're not taking His love for granted) nor are you guilty of despair because you trust in God's love.

When you despair, you place yourself outside of the power and influence of Almighty God.

When you presume, you place yourself outside of the [i]need [/i]for God's power and influence.

In both cases, you sin by elevating yourself above God. That is why despair and presumption are like two sides of the same sinful coin.

Two devotional texts that might be good for you are the diaries of St Faustina and the autobiography of St Therese of Lisieux.

[kafka]

[quote name='Innocent' date='24 June 2010 - 08:43 AM' timestamp='1277383395' post='2133593']
I'd be very grateful if anyone could give me some insight on this matter. It has been confusing me for some time now.

I have read in the works of many Catholic authors (Dom Lorenzo Scupoli, St. Teresa of Avila, St. John Cassian, Fr. F.W. Faber, etc.) that one of the foundational principles of Catholic ascesis is "Distrust in self (along with an abiding sorrow for sin) and simultaneous trust in Divine Providence."

But here's the problem:

1. If I don't co-operate with Providence, I can fall out of friendship and intimacy with God easily.

2. But my distrust in self, which comes from knowledge about original sin and also my personal experience of my sinfulness, includes the fact that I realise that I can never be fully confident of my ability to co-operate with the God's grace. (I recall that St. Augustine too devoted a few passages in the Confessions (Bk 10, ch. 5) to say that he could not be sure of how he would hold up against.)

3. Also, strenuous ascesis is required to co-operate with Providence and to grow in virtue and deepen one's communion with God but at the same time, a single moment of slackening of spiritual watchfulness (thus causing willfulness and turning away from co-operating with God's grace) could result in destroying the fruits of several years of moral effort.

Given all this, how can one avoid despair and how does one hold on to the virtue of hope?


I hope I have stated the issue clearly.
[/quote]
How can you avoid despair? By ordering your mind and focusing more on the Divine Nature. We are all finite and created human persons. We are limited. God is Infinite.

answer to one: Cooperating with Providence takes many years to learn. It is an ongoing process to figure out God's particular will for you in your uniqueness. So slowly work towards it. For the time being God's will is that we avoid all grave sins. That is clear. Start there and work your way forward. Read Sacred Scripture everyday.

answer to two: Do not blow it out of proportion. Everyone is a sinner (except Jesus and Mary). Once you have repented and turned from sin, it is a whole new life, and you start becoming a whole new person. Acknowledge your limits before God and He will take care of you. Look at how many other Christians figured out how to be holy. It can happen but it is an ongoing process.

Will answer the other ones later.

[kafka]

[quote name='Innocent' date='24 June 2010 - 08:43 AM' timestamp='1277383395' post='2133593']
I'd be very grateful if anyone could give me some insight on this matter. It has been confusing me for some time now.

I have read in the works of many Catholic authors (Dom Lorenzo Scupoli, St. Teresa of Avila, St. John Cassian, Fr. F.W. Faber, etc.) that one of the foundational principles of Catholic ascesis is "Distrust in self (along with an abiding sorrow for sin) and simultaneous trust in Divine Providence."

3. Also, strenuous ascesis is required to co-operate with Providence and to grow in virtue and deepen one's communion with God but at the same time, a single moment of slackening of spiritual watchfulness (thus causing willfulness and turning away from co-operating with God's grace) could result in destroying the fruits of several years of moral effort.

Given all this, how can one avoid despair and how does one hold on to the virtue of hope?


I hope I have stated the issue clearly.
[/quote]
Strenuous ascesis is not required to co-operate with Providence. Providence is God seeing all our free choices and providing for all we need to reach our journey's end. And He does this in the One Transcendent Eternal Act which He is. God's spread his Providence out over a whole lifetime. We are created, finite, bound to time and place but God is everywhere and everywhen. He will take care of you. Cooperating with Providence is more discerning what God provides for you at the necessary times and then following that course. It is subtle and happens over a whole lifetime. God is Eternity. Things unfold for one who is following God's will in due time which may be years or it could be quick since God is absolutely free.

Shoot for perfection and you will still have many imperfections, fewer venial sins and little if any mortal sins. Learn how to tolerate your weaknesses. Even God tolerates our venial sins since we do not lose eternal life when we commit them. And the tendencies of sin (concupiscences) never go away no matter how much self-denial we perform. Self-denial is just one path to holiness and it is not the same for everyone. You will slacken no matter what you do. It is part of the testing of life. Just do not ever commit a mortal sin. God's grace is sufficient.

Some of the saints may have blown their self-denial out of proportion. Focus on the Nature of God which is Love, Justice, Mercy, Wisdom and do not wallow in the little petty things of life (if that is what you are doing)

The abiding sorrow for sin is not emotional. It is spiritual. Saint Jerome detested the way he lived his early years, but that didnt stop him from going after God. But where is God? He is Infinite and Free. You cannot try to bottle Him up in a nice little convenient spiritual life.

Finally, you may want to stop reading books by the Mediterranean saints for a while. Sometimes they exaggerate. You have to read with discernment. Try reading some of the Anglos like "The Cloud of Unknowing." Or Thomas Merton's early works. If a book is causing you a troubled spirit maybe it is God's will that you should not be reading it.

Grace and Peace, and stop worrying so much.

[Innocent]

Thanks for the replies, TeresaBenedicta, Zigamaffu, and Kafka!

[Innocent]

I found this snippet on a blog today:




[url="http://payingattentiontothesky.com/2009/07/21/romano-guardini-on-the-imitation-of-christ/"]Romano Guardini on the Imitation Of Christ[/url]


Thanks for your answers, all, once again. It does help to have the prespective of others.

I still don't have much clarity in my mind. But I understand this much: I need to continue in Mental Prayer, Spiritual Reading (at a minimum, the Bible) and trying to trust in Providence even when my imperfections seem overwhelming.

I have to say, it feels mostly like climbing a steep cliff in the dark without even knowing if there are any foot-holds above me.

Edited June 30, 2010 by Innocent

[Innocent]

From a sermon by Cardinal Newman:

[quote]
What a lesson of humility and watchfulness have we in this doctrine as now explained! It is one ground of humiliation, that, do what we will, strive as we will, we cannot escape from lesser sins while we are on earth. Though the aids which God gives us are sufficient to enable us to live without sin, yet our {130} infirmity of will and of attention is a match for them, and we do not do in fact that which we might do. And again, what is not only humbling, but even frightful and appalling, we are in danger of mortal sin as well as in certainty of venial; and the only reason why we are not in certainty of mortal is, that an extraordinary gift is given to those who supplicate for it, to secure them from mortal, though no such extraordinary gift is given to secure them from venial. In spite of the presence of grace in our souls, in spite of the actual assistances given us, we owe any hope we have of heaven, not to that inward grace simply, nor to those aids, but, I repeat, to a supplementary mercy which protects us against ourselves, rescues us from occasions of sin, strengthens us in our hour of danger, and ends our days at that very time, perhaps cuts short our life in order to secure a time, when no mortal sin has separated us from God. Nothing we are, nothing we do, is any guarantee to us that this supplementary mercy has been accorded to us; we cannot know till the end; all we know is, that God has helped us hitherto, and we trust He will help us still. But yet the experience of what He has already done is no proof that He will do more; our present religiousness need not be the consequence of the gift of perseverance as bestowed upon us; it may have been intended merely to prompt and enable us to pray earnestly and continually for that gift. There are men who, had they died at a particular time, would have died the death of Saints, and who lived to fall. They lived on here to die eternally. O dreadful {131} thought! Never be you offended, my brethren, or overwhelmed, when you find that the good and gentle, or the zealous and useful, is cut down and taken off in the midst of his course; it is hard to bear, but who knows that he is not taken away à facie malitiæ, "from the presence of evil," from the evil to come? "He was taken away," as the Wise Man says, "lest wickedness should alter his understanding, or deceit beguile his soul. For the bewitching of vanity obscureth good things, and the wandering of concupiscence overturneth the innocent mind. Being made perfect in a short space, he fulfilled a long time. For his soul pleased God; and therefore He hastened to bring him out of the midst of iniquities. But the people see this and understand not, nor lay such things in their hearts: that the grace of God and His mercy is with His Saints, and that He hath respect unto His chosen."

...
...
...

My brethren, there was once an Eastern king, in his day the richest of men; and a Grecian sage came to visit him, and, having seen all his glory and his majesty, was pressed by this poor child of vanity to say whether he was not the happiest of men. To whom the wise man did but reply, that he should wait till he saw the end. So it is as regards spiritual wealth; because Almighty God, in spite of His ample promises, and His faithful performance of them, has not put out of His own hands the issues of life and death, and the end comes from Him as well as the beginning. When He has once given grace, He has not therefore simply {133} made over to the creature his own salvation. The creature can merit much; but as he could not merit the grace of conversion, neither can he merit the gift of perseverance. From first to last he is dependent on Him who made him; he cannot be extortionate with Him, he cannot turn His bounty to the prejudice of the Bountiful; he may not exalt himself, he dare not presume, but "if he thinketh he standeth, let him take heed lest he fall". He must watch and pray, he must fear and tremble, he must "chastise his body and bring it into subjection, lest, after he has preached to others, he himself should be reprobate".[/quote][url="http://www.newmanreader.org/works/discourses/discourse7.html"]Discourses to Mixed Congregations, Discourse 7.[/url]


So if I understand Cardinal Newman correctly, we can not persevere by our own strength, nor can we merit perseverence. The only thing to do is to beg God for the gift of perseverence through repeated prayer. (I suppose this is what Raphael (I'm referring to the Phatmasser, not the Archangel. ) meant when he said that [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=105038&view=findpost&p=2106465"]we need a morality based on "munus"[/url])



But.... Even here I have something to worry about: how do I persevere in praying for the gift of perseverence before I have received the gift of perseverence?

Or is it that I receive this gift before I ask for it through the Sacramental channels and, having received it, I just need to hold on to it with gratitude and diligent fulfillment of the duties that come with it?

Edited June 30, 2010 by Innocent

[kafka]

[quote name='Innocent' date='30 June 2010 - 01:29 PM' timestamp='1277918992' post='2136219']
From a sermon by Cardinal Newman:

[url="http://www.newmanreader.org/works/discourses/discourse7.html"]Discourses to Mixed Congregations, Discourse 7.[/url]


So if I understand Cardinal Newman correctly, we can not persevere by our own strength, nor can we merit perseverence. The only thing to do is to beg God for the gift of perseverence through repeated prayer. (I suppose this is what Raphael (I'm referring to the Phatmasser, not the Archangel. ) meant when he said that [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=105038&view=findpost&p=2106465"]we need a morality based on "munus"[/url])



But.... Even here I have something to worry about: how do I persevere in praying for the gift of perseverence before I have received the gift of perseverence?

Or is it that I receive this gift before I ask for it through the Sacramental channels and, having received it, I just need to hold on to it with gratitude and diligent fulfillment of the duties that come with it?
[/quote]
I read the Newman quote. Good yet I disagree with him here:

"But yet the experience of what He has already done is no proof that He will do more; our present religiousness need not be the consequence of the gift of perseverance as bestowed upon us; it may have been intended merely to prompt and enable us to pray earnestly and continually for that gift."

God will do everything for us to lead us to our ultimate end which is none other than Himself in the unfading vision and union and happiness of Heaven. He already has done everything in One Divine Eternal Act, in the one human act of dying on the Cross.

I think you are breaking things down too much. Work more toward a simplicity. There is a time for everything. There is a time to pray to God for perseverance, but you do not need to continually beg Him. He knows what you need. Maybe make a point to read the Psalms everyday. Learn how to pray from the Psalms, and from the example and teachings of Jesus. Pray with a simple and a truly sincere heart.

I thought of you when I read this last night:

{36:23} The steps of a man will be directed by the Lord, and he will choose his way.
{36:24} When he falls, he will not be harmed, because the Lord places his hand under him.

In the context of the psalm it is clear that these falls being described are imperfections and venial sins. Yet even God will continue to guide, direct and provide for us even if we fall short of His whole will and plan.

It also seems that you read way too many different things. Personally at this point I am very careful about what I read. Sacred Scripture is surely the best, but it takes faith, grace, etc. and even time to really get into it. But it is well worth the effort. I think God is very pleased with people who sincerely want to be directed and taught directly from His Sacred Scripture. Who live with it, and love it.

In any case good luck. It is good discussing with you.

[TradMom]

+Praised be Jesus Christ!

You have received such wise words, I cannot possibly add anything except to tell you I am praying for you!

Pax,
TradMom

[Innocent]

[quote name='kafka' date='01 July 2010 - 03:46 AM' timestamp='1277932563' post='2136315']
I think you are breaking things down too much. Work more toward a simplicity. There is a time for everything. There is a time to pray to God for perseverance, but you do not need to continually beg Him. He knows what you need. Maybe make a point to read the Psalms everyday. Learn how to pray from the Psalms, and from the example and teachings of Jesus. Pray with a simple and a truly sincere heart.[/quote]

I think it would be great to have this simplicity. For now I have mainly confusion (not about the teachings of the Church on faith and morals as such. I mean a practical confusion about how to succeed in applying those teachings to my life, and mainly how to fight against discouragement and keep intact the rectitude of intention that I'm supposed to have always.) and it only seems like when I take up the threads of one corner of the spiritual life, another corner gets unravelled. I wish I could learn the secret of how saints like St. John the Baptist or St. Joseph managed to live as virtuous men and do whatever duties Providence gave them in their ordinary daily lives. They make it look so easy.



[quote name='kafka' date='01 July 2010 - 03:46 AM' timestamp='1277932563' post='2136315']
It also seems that you read way too many different things. Personally at this point I am very careful about what I read. Sacred Scripture is surely the best, but it takes faith, grace, etc. and even time to really get into it. But it is well worth the effort. I think God is very pleased with people who sincerely want to be directed and taught directly from His Sacred Scripture. Who live with it, and love it.
[/quote]

You have a good point. I remember that St. Therese was primarily very fond of the Bible for spiritual reading and she managed to do very well in the spiritual life. I wish I had a spiritual director who could guide me in my reading. Do you have one? Was it difficult to find him?





And thanks for the prayers, TradMom!

[kafka]

[quote name='Innocent' date='01 July 2010 - 02:45 PM' timestamp='1278009938' post='2136663']
You have a good point. I remember that St. Therese was primarily very fond of the Bible for spiritual reading and she managed to do very well in the spiritual life. I wish I had a spiritual director who could guide me in my reading. Do you have one? Was it difficult to find him?
[/quote]
Good point about Saint Therese I forgot about that. It would be nice to have that quote.

I do not think you need a spiritual director to guide you in your reading of Sacred Scripture for the riches and depths are open to everyone who seek them in the word of God:

{55:1} All you who thirst, come to the waters. And you who have no money: hurry, buy and eat. Approach, buy wine and milk, without money and without barter.
{55:2} Why do you spend money for what is not bread, and expend your labor for what does not satisfy? Listen very closely to me, and eat what is good, and then your soul will be delighted by a full measure.
{55:3} Incline your ear and draw near to me. Listen, and your soul will live. And I will make an everlasting covenant with you, by the faithful mercies of David.
(Isaiah)

It is good though to learn how to read it. Read with faith and reason. Accept that it is infallible and inerrant. Try to figure out what the sacred author and God is asserting. Learn the two levels of meaning the literal/figurative and the spiritual. Aquinas taught this. Read some of the commentaries of the Saints such as Aquinas' or Augustine's of the Psalms to get a feel on how they interpreted Sacred Scripture. Yet most of all just read, and read and read and live with the word of God. Force yourself at first if you have to and stick with it! You will be transformed.

Grace and peace.

[Innocent]

[quote name='kafka' date='03 July 2010 - 07:37 AM' timestamp='1278119233' post='2137186']
Good point about Saint Therese I forgot about that. It would be nice to have that quote.

[/quote]

[quote]This, then, is what I think about the Justice of God; my own way
is all confidence and love, and I cannot understand those souls
who are afraid of so affectionate a Friend. Sometimes, when I read
books in which perfection is put before us with the goal
obstructed by a thousand obstacles, my poor little head is quickly
fatigued. I close the learned treatise, which tires my brain and
dries up my heart, and I turn to the Sacred Scriptures. Then all
becomes clear and lightsome--a single word opens out infinite
vistas, perfection appears easy, and I see that it is enough to
acknowledge our nothingness, and like children surrender ourselves
into the Arms of the Good God. Leaving to great and lofty minds
the beautiful books which I cannot understand, still less put in
practice, I rejoice in my littleness because "only little children
and those who are like them shall be admitted to the Heavenly
banquet."[6] Fortunately--"there are many mansions in my Father's
House":[7] if there were only those--to me--incomprehensible
mansions with their baffling roads, I should certainly never enter
there . . .[/quote] From [url="http://www.gutenberg.org/files/16772/16772-8.txt"]The Story Of A Soul, LETTERS TO HER BROTHER MISSIONARIES, Letter VI, (Final paragraph).[/url]

[Innocent]

There's a book in the Internet Archive about despondency.

[url="http://www.archive.org/details/spiritualdespond00gareuoft"]Spiritual despondency and temptations (1904) - by Fr. P.J. Jacques Michael, S.J.[/url]

I've read it through. There were some points helpful for me. Perhaps someone else in a similar situation may find it helpful.

[Innocent]

[quote name='kafka' date='03 July 2010 - 07:37 AM' timestamp='1278119233' post='2137186']
Good point about Saint Therese I forgot about that. It would be nice to have that quote.

I do not think you need a spiritual director to guide you in your reading of Sacred Scripture for the riches and depths are open to everyone who seek them in the word of God:

It is good though to learn how to read it. Read with faith and reason. Accept that it is infallible and inerrant. Try to figure out what the sacred author and God is asserting. Learn the two levels of meaning the literal/figurative and the spiritual. Aquinas taught this. Read some of the commentaries of the Saints such as Aquinas' or Augustine's of the Psalms to get a feel on how they interpreted Sacred Scripture. Yet most of all just read, and read and read and live with the word of God. Force yourself at first if you have to and stick with it! You will be transformed.

[/quote]

Thanks for the advice, again. By the way, I do read Scripture daily. (When I mentioned a spiritual director, I meant, to guide me with reading other spiritual works written by the Saints & spiritual writers.) Until some years back I couldn't find it interesting, but then I did as you said and "forced myself" to read it through. (At that time the only version I had was an NRSV.) Now I read small sections daily. After having got a Jerusalem Bible, my interest in reading Scripture has fortunately increased a lot. So I don't need to worry much about motivation at this point.

Edited July 3, 2010 by Innocent