p0lar_bear Posted April 21, 2004 Share Posted April 21, 2004 [quote]I do say, however, that laymen should not read the Bible for the same purpose which Thomas A Kempis stated, to come to a knowledge of the truth (as he says, the reason for which it was written).[/quote] I'm sorry, I'm still stuck on this.... Regarding your quotes: First of all, they are from a local council, so by no means proof of a constant teaching of the Church. Second, the document seems to be an attempt to address the problem of Albegensianism and its use of bad translations. The Church still strives for better and better translations in all languages and She condemns (though not by name) those translations that are not true to the meaning of the ancient texts. Also, if this is the teaching of the Church, as you claim, then why is there no mention of it in [i]Providentissimus Deus[/i] or [i]Divino Afflante Spiritu[/i]? Leo XIII talks about departments of biblical studies at seminaries [i]and academic institutions[/i] (cf. PD, no. 11). Throughout both documents the Holy Fathers refer to "private students," "biblical scholars," and "Catholic commentators," never qualifying these as exclusively clergy or religious. Given the problems in biblical studies that they were addressing, if they wanted to restrict such biblical studies to priests and religious, these two documents would have been the place to do it, but they did not. If the Church maintains that the laity should not read the Bible so as to discover truth within it, why does She award lay people with STBs, STLs, and STDs in biblical studies? Why does She allow lay people to study and the Pontiffical schools such as the Angelicum and the Gregorian? (This was allowed before Vatican II). Why has there been nothing written by any Pope or Ecumenical council in the history of the Church restricting the reading and study of the Bible? Aside from a local council trying to deal with the problem of bad translations, there is absolutely no Magesterial evidence for your position. [quote]While the changing of the Mass was utter chaos and a destruction of Tradition (among other things),[/quote] If [b]T[/b]radition has been destroyed, the gates of Hell have prevailed. The only thing touched was [b]t[/b]radition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the lumberjack Posted April 21, 2004 Share Posted April 21, 2004 p0lar bear, at the risk of sounding like a complete baffoon, I commend you for questioning things like this... questions like this are what really lead to wisdom and knowledge... not just taking the word of another man, no matter how long he's been dead, or how good he was... i have no doubt that you are a catholic that wants to serve Christ with all you heart, and be faithful to His church... and it makes me glad in my little dumb protestant heart to see someone unafraid to ask those questions and make those statements. though you will undoubtedly be corrected and reassymilated to conform to the infallible church teaching... God bless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted April 21, 2004 Share Posted April 21, 2004 (edited) Lunber you still don't get it do you? There is nothing wrong with questioning and never has been. However, there are somethings that are defined and you accept them. It is not necessary to keep re-inventing the wheel. Do you argue with the Trinity or do you accept it? Some things are the bottom line of Christianty, some basic standards. So those people who call themselves Christians, and do not believe in the physical Resurrection of Jesus, are not christians, no matter what they call themselves. Catholics are the most logical and questioning people I know. Groups that have defined themselves in narrow little boxes are the ones who never question anything. I know people who cannot make a decision unless the run it by their preacher. Edited April 21, 2004 by cmotherofpirl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the lumberjack Posted April 21, 2004 Share Posted April 21, 2004 cmom, I don't want to post TOO much to take away from p0lar bear's post.... yeah, we DO agree on the basics...so long as we're not talking about it in the "historical" sense. the trinity. Jesus is Lord and Saviour of the Universe. we need to be baptized. we should partake of communion. we should do good deeds, not to merit anything, but to show our faith and be justified in our walk and life to men... we are saved by grace thru faith. Christ was born of a virgin. and all the other absolute basics. but beyond this, there is too great a rift to be breached... I DO get it. your relics, over indulgence in the superfancy ornate dress and ornamentation and exaltation of the bishops and papal representatives, "sainthood", immaculate conception, you know the rest...this is what is unbreachable in the mind of all evangelical christians. the fact that to get to know your religion, I would have to dig thru over 2000 years of inconclusive contradicting documents and councils. don't take that last statement the wrong way....but come on, if you HAVE been around for 2000 years as you all love to claim, shouldn't there be a SOLID doctrine now? 2000 years later? as a Christian, my doctrine is not complete...yet what I know I have, is rock solid in God's word. there are some teachings I might not be ready for, and some that I might not agree with...but you know...thats just me. no one is perfect...no one. I do not interpret the bible for myself, as your religion SOOO loves to claim I do. [u]I ask again, what does ANYTHING I've posted do to lift me above the station of a sinner that has been redeemed thru Christ?[/u] I have read in the Bible that FAITH is the center of our walk with Christ, with God drawing us closer to Himself... where as everything I've read, APART from what you claim here on the board, is that physical perishable things draw us closer to God. that by our works, or a prayer in front of a statue, or wearing some little scapulary, or saying a certain prayer a certain amount of times, or anything else YOU do to draw closer to God. I do get it...and maybe its time I leave, since I guess I'm prone to spark "fruitless dialogues"...but only the Lord knows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p0lar_bear Posted April 21, 2004 Share Posted April 21, 2004 Lumberjack, Umm...I'm a bit confused by your praise. I wasn't in any way questioning that which the Church teaches. I was pointing out that Amarkich's claim was invalid. I was showing that the Church does not and has never taught that lay people should not read the Bible in order to discover truth in it. Not that I've never asked questions about why the Church teaches what She teaches (which is perfectly legitimate), but this is not one of those occassions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amarkich Posted April 22, 2004 Share Posted April 22, 2004 (edited) Polar Bear, my claim was certainly valid. I could get into specifics of how Tradition has been destroyed but that it has not been abandoned or rejected. There is a great difference here (the rejection of Tradition vs. the abandonment of Tradition). While Tradition has been maintained insofar as validity of the Novus Ordo Mass, it has been abandoned in the Novus Ordo culture (not to say that it has been in the Mass). I apologize for the ambiguity. The Novus Ordo, as you may agree, has completely abandoned tradition to the fullest and most absolute extent whereas Novus Ordo culture has abandoned Tradition. I apologize again. Now, more importantly, Lumberjack, you make another error in your post concerning Catholic teaching. [quote]we should partake of communion. we should do good deeds, not to merit anything, but to show our faith and be justified in our walk and life to men... we are saved by grace thru faith.[/quote] The Church does not teach and has never taught that works are simply a manifestation of faith. The Church does not teach and has never taught we are saved by grace through faith. These are both part of the Protestant heresy. It is condemned by the Council of Trent, c.f., Canons on Justification. Recognizing that these are Canons on [i]Justification[/i], it must be noted that these Canons must be understood correctly. If you are to adhere to the heresy that we are saved by grace through faith, you may as well believe that you are saved by grace alone (because 1) faith in itself is a type of good work and 2) faith is an action taken by an individual, which, constituting as a good work, would be the equivalent of man saving himself under the Protestant heresy of Sola Fide, even when it is taught "properly" and includes works as necessary for justification). God bless. Edited April 22, 2004 by amarkich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amarkich Posted April 22, 2004 Share Posted April 22, 2004 (edited) Likewise, while I do not have time to sufficiently reply with an argument of equal length, I stand by the simple fact that the Bible leads many astray. This has been stated by the Church and the Popes (as well as many Saints). The fact of the matter is this: even if the Church does not forbid Bible reading for seeking Truth, it should not be done because of the simple fact that it leads even the "educated and gifted" to be deceived. Also, it is very interesting to note that absolution was denied to those who were distributing the Books of the Bible. If it is so harmless, why was this practice advocated? It is clear that the "Bible-happy" (sorry, I can think of no other terminology) attitude of the Modernist "catholic" culture has focused so strongly on the use of the Bible that those who choose to read it as an option devotion also choose to believe that they can discern truth from it. This is not the vocation of the individual, however, regardless of whether or not it is within his ability. It is the job of the Church. God bless. Edited April 22, 2004 by amarkich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted April 22, 2004 Share Posted April 22, 2004 Hear we go again... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Livin_the_MASS Posted April 22, 2004 Author Share Posted April 22, 2004 (edited) [quote name='amarkich' date='Apr 21 2004, 08:11 PM'] Likewise, while I do not have time to sufficiently reply with an argument of equal length, I stand by the simple fact that the Bible leads many astray. This has been stated by the Church and the Popes (as well as many Saints). The fact of the matter is this: even if the Church does not forbid Bible reading for seeking Truth, it should not be done because of the simple fact that it leads even the "educated and gifted" to be deceived. Also, it is very interesting to note that absolution was denied to those who were distributing the Books of the Bible. If it is so harmless, why was this practice advocated? It is clear that the "Bible-happy" (sorry, I can think of no other terminology) attitude of the Modernist "catholic" culture has focused so strongly on the use of the Bible that those who choose to read it as an option devotion also choose to believe that they can discern truth from it. This is not the vocation of the individual, however, regardless of whether or not it is within his ability. It is the job of the Church. God bless. [/quote] [quote name='amarkich' date='Apr 21 2004, 08:11 PM']Likewise, while I do not have time to sufficiently reply with an argument of equal length, I stand by the simple fact that the Bible leads many astray. This has been stated by the Church and the Popes (as well as many Saints). The fact of the matter is this: even if the Church does not forbid Bible reading for seeking Truth, it should not be done because of the simple fact that it leads even the wise and knowledgeable to be deceived. God bless.[/quote] [quote]"A Wholehearted Return to Scripture" "The fortunes of the Church throughout history depend on her love of Christ and, consequently, her openness to Him speaking through Scripture. The great Catholic Scripture commentator, Cornelius A. Lapide, testifies to the conviction of Saint Teresa of Avila: "S[aint] Teresa, a women endowed with the spirit of prophecy, and renowed throughout all Spain for the glory of her miracles, and the sanctity of her life, was taught by God that all the troubles of the Church, [b]all the evils of the world, flow from this source, that men do not, by clear and sound knowledge, and serious consideration, penetrate into the verities of Sacred Scripture."[/b][/quote] You must have missed my post? There is nothing wrong with a Catholic Christian owning and reading his or her own Bible. They should know to stay within the guidelines of the Chuch, this does not mean not to read Sacred Scripture. Are you misunderstanding this or what? My personal story, God touched me in His Sacred Scripture, First though His True Presence in the Holy Eucharist, which lead me to Sacred Scripture. [b][i][u]Scripture and the Church---both or neither![/u][/i][/b] God Bless Jason Edited April 22, 2004 by Jason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p0lar_bear Posted April 22, 2004 Share Posted April 22, 2004 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Apr 21 2004, 09:12 PM'] Hear we go again... [/quote] I seem to be getting a lot of deja vu on the board lately.... I should just stop responding, but I'm afraid people will think that these people speak for the Church... [quote]I apologize for the ambiguity. The Novus Ordo, as you may agree, has completely abandoned tradition to the fullest and most absolute extent whereas Novus Ordo culture has abandoned Tradition. I apologize again. [/quote] Actually, I completely and utterly disagree with both of these statements, but that is not the point of the thread and dUst has asked us to avoid Catholic vs. Catholic arguments, so I will drop this now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IcePrincessKRS Posted April 22, 2004 Share Posted April 22, 2004 Thank you Polar Bear for keeping in mind dUSt's "rules", its always nice to see that some people are indeed trying to follow them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted April 22, 2004 Share Posted April 22, 2004 AMEN! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p0lar_bear Posted April 22, 2004 Share Posted April 22, 2004 [quote name='IcePrincessKRS' date='Apr 21 2004, 10:09 PM'] Thank you Polar Bear for keeping in mind dUSt's "rules", its always nice to see that some people are indeed trying to follow them. [/quote] Not sure how often I succeed, but I try... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the lumberjack Posted April 22, 2004 Share Posted April 22, 2004 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Apr 21 2004, 07:12 PM'] Hear we go again... [/quote] you said it...and I'm not going to dig thru my bible again to find all the contextual verses that say our works ARE a manefestation of our faith and that we ARE saved by grace thru faith...but hey...Paul HAD to be wrong, right? you know, that whole ephesians 2:8,9 thing...oh well. and yeah, amarkich, I KNOW that its part of the "protestant heresy" thats why I changed my avatar... if you don't believe I post out of my love for you...too bad. and as for catholic on catholic debates, whats so wrong with that? THAT is how people are corrected, and brought back to correct doctrine...but hey, not my board...not my rules. God bless you, my estranged phatmass phamily! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted April 22, 2004 Share Posted April 22, 2004 We are not estranged, some are not as advanced as others... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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