On Reading Holy Scripture

[Livin_the_MASS]

I've herd it called the 5th Gospel.

God Bless
Jason

[Paladin D]

[quote name='amarkich' date='Apr 19 2004, 08:26 PM']
This quote seems rather ambiguous. Are you referring to "denominations" of Christianity (in which you include the Church as a denomination and consider heresies as denominations) or are you referring simply to the different denominations of the Protestant heresy (as well as other heresies)? I expect that it is referring to the 'denominations' of heresy for a few reasons (I will be inclined to simply call them heresies rather than "denominations of heresy" throughout the post). The first thing that must be recognized is that the Bible did not exist before the Church. In fact, the Bible comes from the Church. In regard to Bible reading, it should be noted that the Protestant heresy as well as the other heresies which came earlier, e.g., Arianism, Manichaeism, Albigensianism, etc., and those which came after, e.g., Modernism and Americanism, the New Age and Charismatic movements, etc., all collectively dissent from the Church and therefore the Truth. Some of the more modern movements focus very strongly on the Bible (basically the Protestant heresy to modern heresies do this) and downplay or reject the authority of the Church, but as other individuals have stated, the concept of Sola Scriptura is an unbiblical, man-made doctrine, a "doctrine of demons" as it were (to use the diction of Saint Paul who, by the way, as cmotherofpirl has mentioned, does not write a simple message). So, lumberjack, it is very clear that your invented doctrines are contrary to the Bible, so are you prepared to admit to Paladin that he is correct? God bless. [/quote]
I was refering to the Orthodox split and the Protestant Reformation.

[Justified Saint]

[quote]I've herd it called the 5th Gospel.[/quote]

Well, that would logically follow since Catholics wrote the first four.

It is amazing how some(*cough lumberjack cough*) can actually say that Catholics don't know how to think for themselves when it is the Catholic faith that has created the greatest thinkers, writers, and artists in history.

[God Conquers]

YES!!! AMEN!

[Justified Saint]

I was inspired so I just went out and bought "The Imitation of Christ".

[Dave]

[quote name='Justified Saint' date='Apr 19 2004, 08:35 PM'] It is amazing how some(*cough lumberjack cough*) can actually say that Catholics don't know how to think for themselves when it is the Catholic faith that has created the greatest thinkers, writers, and artists in history. [/quote]
Like I said elsewhere, faithful Catholics DO think for themselves. They listen to what the Church has to say and why, and they decide for themselves that the Church is right. Catholics DO have minds of their own, and their minds tell them it makes good sense to listen to what the Church says!

[Jake Huether]

[quote name='Dave' date='Apr 19 2004, 09:23 PM'] Like I said elsewhere, faithful Catholics DO think for themselves. They listen to what the Church has to say and why, and they decide for themselves that the Church is right. Catholics DO have minds of their own, and their minds tell them it makes good sense to listen to what the Church says! [/quote]
Great reply. Amen to that! I've thought about it, and um.... I'm staying. LOL.

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote name='Justified Saint' date='Apr 19 2004, 11:06 PM'] I was inspired so I just went out and bought "The Imitation of Christ". [/quote]

[the lumberjack]

[quote name='Dave' date='Apr 19 2004, 10:23 PM'] Like I said elsewhere, faithful Catholics DO think for themselves. They listen to what the Church has to say and why, and they decide for themselves that the Church is right. Catholics DO have minds of their own, and their minds tell them it makes good sense to listen to what the Church says! [/quote]
sure, you weigh NEW catholic tradition against old, yet still approved, catholic tradition, and as long as there are a couple of bible verses in there to support the new catholic point, you'll go with it.

you fear the laws of men, rather than the Word of God.

what about this last Sunday? when Divine Mercy Sunday was held for the first time, officially?

could you elaborate on that?

[cmotherofpirl]

Divine Mercy is just celebrating another facet of God's love for us.

That is certainly nothing new.

[the lumberjack]

but is it NOT a NEW, very recently instituted teaching?

not certified up until this passed sunday?

[Dave]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='Apr 20 2004, 01:17 PM'] sure, you weigh NEW catholic tradition against old, yet still approved, catholic tradition, and as long as there are a couple of bible verses in there to support the new catholic point, you'll go with it.

you fear the laws of men, rather than the Word of God.

what about this last Sunday? when Divine Mercy Sunday was held for the first time, officially?

could you elaborate on that? [/quote]
The Word of God encompasses Sacred Tradition AS WELL AS Scripture. When we say Sacred Tradition, we're just not talking about man-made laws. The Church has taught the same things that Jesus taught for 2000 years. Some are explicitly found in Scripture, and some are explicitly found in Sacred Tradition. But NEITHER contradicts the other.

And as for Divine Mercy Sunday, the Church has the authority to institute new feast days. But that's not an issue of doctrine. What is an issue of doctrine is Christ's mercy for us. That has always been taught since the earliest times. But whether a feast day should be made or which day it should be held falls into the realm of discipline.

[amarkich]

Lumberjack, you are wrong about Divine Mercy Sunday. I attend a Mass that uses the 1962 Missal (the Mass, Feasts, Breviary, etc.), and the Feast of the last Sunday is called Low Sunday properly speaking, but it is also referred to as Divine Mercy Sunday as well as Quasi Modo Sunday (the first two words of the Introit, similar to Gaudete Sunday and Laetare Sunday), even before Vatican II. As far as I understand, the prayers of the Mass have not changed this year (any more than they have since Vatican II, compared to the Traditional Mass). I agree with you completely about the fact that the Mass should not have changed, but you must recognize that it is within the Church's authority to change the Mass. While the changing of the Mass was utter chaos and a destruction of Tradition (among other things), it is not a dogmatic issue and can change. We simply must pray for a Restoration of Tradition in the Mass and within the Church in general.

[Livin_the_MASS]

[b]Scott Hahn "Scripture Matters"[/b]

"Indeed, the Magisterium has thrown down the gauntlet. What will happen if theologians take it up? Undoubtedly, to do so, systematicians must become thoroughly acquainted with Scripture, and grounded in its covenant theology and salvation history, just a exegetes must be able and willing to teach a style of theological exegesis that build upon---yet goes beyond--- historical-critical exegesis.

"This point must be made clearly: Catholic exegetes do not need to reject historical-critical methods. But they should only employ these methods with caution; at the same time, they do not have to employ only these methods. The Church recommends cautions but non-exclusive use. Two centuries of practice showed limited uses---and virtually unlimited abuses.

"What would happen to ordinary Catholics if this challenge were accepted and the mandate realized? Perhaps the result would be Catholics discovering all the riches and mysteries of their faith within Scripture. Indeed, this is precisely what Catholic catechesis must strive for in the future, as John Paul II forcefully states in his "Apostolic Exhoration on Catechesis in Our Time" (Catechesi Tradendae), where he makes a strong plea for restoring the primacy of Scripture to catechesis:

[b][i]'To speak of Tradition and Scripture as the source of catechesis is to draw attention fo the fact that catechesis must be impregnated and penetrated by the thought, the spirit and the outlook of the Bible and the Gospels through assifuous contact with the texts themselves; but it is also reminder that catechesis will be all the richer and more effective for reading the texts with the intelligence and the heart of the Church and for drawing inspiration from the two thousand years of the Church's reflection and life.'[/i][/b]

"Unfortunately, many Catholics still feel they must avoid studying Scripture, sometimes because they are confused by difficulties in the text or with critical interpretations of it. In any case, many Catholics still react to the tactics used by aggressive non-Catholic believers---the so-called Bible Christians who teach and practice the Protestant doctrine of [i]sola scriptura.[/i] By now evey Catholic should know--- and be able to show--- the unscriptural character of this doctrine (cf. 1 Tim. 3:15; 2 Thess. 2:15, 3:6) although it is not beyond rehabilitation. (e.g., [i]solum verbum Dei[/i], only the Word of God"' [i]prima sciptura[/i], "Scripture first")

"Too often, however Catholics yield to something like an out-of-court divorce settlement:"She gets the house while I keep the car and furniture," becomes. "They get the Scripture while we keep Tradition and the Magisterium.' In truth, they are inseparable:[b][u] Scripture and the Church---both or neither![/u][/b]

"Thus, the proper interpretation of Scripture must be done in the Church, of the Church, and by the Church. For the Church is the Mystical Body of Christ Who, as its head, sent the Holy Spirit to be the indwelling soul of the Body of Christ. The some Spirit Who inspired the founders and leaders of the Church in the first generation to write the New Testament is able to guide their successors to understand and teach it truly in all future generations. The Holy Spirit enlightens the Church to interpret what He inspired.


[b]"A Wholehearted Return to Scripture"[/b]

"The fortunes of the Church throughout history depend on her love of Christ and, consequently, her openness to Him speaking through Scripture. The great Catholic Scripture commentator, Cornelius A. Lapide, testifies to the conviction of Saint Teresa of Avila: "S[aint] Teresa, a women endowed with the spirit of prophecy, and renowed throughout all Spain for the glory of her miracles, and the sanctity of her life, [b]was taught by God that all the troubles of the Church, all the evils of the world, flow from this source, that men do not, by clear and sound knowledge, and serious consideration, penetrate into the verities of Sacred Scripture."[/b]





To me Sacred Scripture must be read within the guide lines of the Church, but this does not state by any means that one should not read or own there own Bible.
I have like 5 Bibles each one is different in translation. Scripture should always be a part of our daily lives within the Church. We need to read Gods Word!

God Bless
Jason

[Livin_the_MASS]

Crazy computer :pebcam:

Edited April 21, 2004 by Jason