Are Our Criminals Treated Better Than The Victims?

[KnightofChrist]

Summa Theologica > Second Part of the Second Part > Question 108

[url="http://www.newadvent.org/summa/3108.htm"]Vengeance[/url]

[url="http://www.newadvent.org/summa/3108.htm#article1"]1. Is vengeance lawful?[/url]
[url="http://www.newadvent.org/summa/3108.htm#article2"]2. Is it a special virtue?[/url]
[url="http://www.newadvent.org/summa/3108.htm#article3"]3. The manner of taking vengeance[/url]
[url="http://www.newadvent.org/summa/3108.htm#article4"]4. On whom should vengeance be taken?[/url]

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Lil Red' date='25 June 2010 - 06:37 AM' timestamp='1277404653' post='2133692']
i can't really remember, but what's the difference between human dignity and personal dignity?
[/quote]

Human dignity covers the entire human race. Personal dignity just the person. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one or the few or is it the other way around. ([i][sub]lol[/sub][/i])

[ThePenciledOne]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' date='24 June 2010 - 08:23 PM' timestamp='1277421812' post='2133799']
Human dignity covers the entire human race. Personal dignity just the person. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one or the few or is it the other way around. ([i][sub]lol[/sub][/i])
[/quote]

But then what is dignity?

[Didymus]

Aren't convicts by definition treated better? At the very least, they receive justice, which is a lot more than what their victims received.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='ThePenciledOne' date='25 June 2010 - 11:50 AM' timestamp='1277423438' post='2133813']
But then what is dignity?


[/quote]

Did I make that nervous LOL at the end too small?

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Selah' date='24 June 2010 - 01:00 PM' timestamp='1277395239' post='2133626']
Oh, and since it was asked of me...Timothy Mcveigh got lethal injection. 169 people (an infant included, who was covered in blood and carried by a firefighter) were burned and crushed to death.
[/quote]

I can see your point in Timothy McVeigh's case, although we also live under a Constitution that prohibits cruel and unusual punishment.

Are you confident that most of the people on death row were proven guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt?

Edited June 25, 2010 by LouisvilleFan

[XIX]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='24 June 2010 - 08:06 PM' timestamp='1277420788' post='2133790']
"Infliction of punishment in return for a wrong committed; retribution." Is vengeance as defined by Websters or other similar dictionaries. This actual does not speak of individual use but it is a board term, it can be good or bad. I assumed that Websters had defined it negatively, it has not. Still as individuals we do not have a right to employ vengeance or retribution, this is why we are taught to turn the other cheek, but States are allowed to punish or imprison evil doers, and declare war. The State according to St. Paul is Gods "Avenger" to enact "wrath upon him that does evil". Nothing God does is evil, but scripture clearly states that "vengeance is my saith the Lord", so either God is evil, or vengeance can be just. And God clearly makes the State His mister and Avenger, so again either God is evil, or the State as God's Avenger is good.

avenger

1. To inflict a punishment or penalty in return for; revenge: avenge a murder.
2. To take vengeance on behalf of: avenged their wronged parents.
[/quote]
phanxx

[Socrates]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' date='24 June 2010 - 11:48 AM' timestamp='1277394515' post='2133622']
First, you really need to get yourself some Popeye's. Let your dog eat the KFC

I thought this was going to be about wealthy white collar criminals enjoying the luxury of premium prisons... stuff like that.

I believe there is no place for the systematic or intentional murder of human life in a civilized society, including the death penalty, abortion, and euthanasia. But given the situation where the death penalty is still exercised, giving a little bit of mercy to a person who has lived many years on death row is not unjust. It's not like fast-food is a nice meal anyway -- I hope someone's mother would make him a real meal![/quote]
I respect the opinions of those who oppose the death penalty (though I disagree with them). However, lumping the death penalty for violent criminals with abortion and euthanasia (as "liberal Catholics" are wont to do) is a false tactic which displays either dishonesty or ignorance.
The Church has always allowed for death penalty for murderers, but has always opposed abortion and euthanasia (murder of the innocent) in all cases.
Capital punishment is not considered murder by the Church - deliberate murder is considered always a grave sin, but not all taking of human life is murder.

[quote]Keep in mind too that the death penalty touches other issues, especially racism and classism. Countless innocent citizens have been murdered by our state governments because investigators and juries insist that somebody be indicted for a heinous crime -- that somebody is most likely poor and black.

That is a real injustice. Letting him enjoy one meal is simply being human.
[/quote]
I can't stand when opponents of capital punishment employ the leftist race and "class warfare" cards. They are an emotional red-herring non-argument. No one is advocating the killing of innocent persons (of any color or economic class). Cases of abuses of justice does not mean that real justice should not be exercised. If someone commits horrible murders in cold blood, he should get the death penalty; I don't care whether he is white or black, rich or poor. Justice should be blind, and not concerned with race quotas.
Issues like the number of blacks on death row are completely irrelevant to the rightness or wrongness of the death penalty, but are simply attempts to play on the highly emotionally-charged race issue. The only issue should be whether or not they are guilty.

That said, there's nothing wrong with letting a convict enjoy a good last meal. That's the way it's traditionally always been done.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Selah' date='23 June 2010 - 07:07 PM' timestamp='1277334421' post='2133393']
Our legal system is messed up
[/quote]
"Your system is broken."

~ Bruce Wayne

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Socrates' date='25 June 2010 - 03:02 PM' timestamp='1277488924' post='2134115']
I respect the opinions of those who oppose the death penalty (though I disagree with them). However, lumping the death penalty for violent criminals with abortion and euthanasia (as "liberal Catholics" are wont to do) is a false tactic which displays either dishonesty or ignorance.
The Church has always allowed for death penalty for murderers, but has always opposed abortion and euthanasia (murder of the innocent) in all cases.
Capital punishment is not considered murder by the Church - deliberate murder is considered always a grave sin, but not all taking of human life is murder. [/quote]

I agree. I wasn't taking a stance on how these issues compare or relate to one another. My statement was qualified on the basis that we live in a civilized society, and in a civilized society there should not be a place for any of the above crimes. I left out the fact that abortion and euthanasia are grave evils in every society and situation -- this a safe assumption for anyone on this board who is Catholic.

[quote name='Socrates' date='25 June 2010 - 03:02 PM' timestamp='1277488924' post='2134115']
I can't stand when opponents of capital punishment employ the leftist race and "class warfare" cards. They are an emotional red-herring non-argument. No one is advocating the killing of innocent persons (of any color or economic class). Cases of abuses of justice does not mean that real justice should not be exercised. If someone commits horrible murders in cold blood, he should get the death penalty; I don't care whether he is white or black, rich or poor. Justice should be blind, and not concerned with race quotas. [/quote]

The primary reason for my opposition to the death penalty is the fact that all systems of justice are flawed, which means some innocent people are punished. Obviously, since we are all sinners, this is not as great a sin as abortion.

[quote name='Socrates' date='25 June 2010 - 03:02 PM' timestamp='1277488924' post='2134115']
Issues like the number of blacks on death row are completely irrelevant to the rightness or wrongness of the death penalty, but are simply attempts to play on the highly emotionally-charged race issue. The only issue should be whether or not they are guilty.[/quote]

Yes, the only issue should be the proof of a person's guilt. In real life, many other factors cloud our judgment and interfere with the judicial process. Do you think the story of the Hurricane is not the story of hundreds other lesser-known innocent men who found themselves in the wrong place at the wrong time? A perfect justice system is impossible, but it is at least possible to eliminate capital punishment, if only to allow those who are innocent the dignity of a natural death.