Are Our Criminals Treated Better Than The Victims?

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='24 June 2010 - 11:57 AM' timestamp='1277405878' post='2133702']
Are those theological terms? I'm just speaking generally.
[/quote]
i don't think they are theological terms

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Lil Red' date='24 June 2010 - 02:00 PM' timestamp='1277406001' post='2133703']
i don't think they are theological terms
[/quote]
In that case, I have no idea. Is there a difference?

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='24 June 2010 - 01:11 PM' timestamp='1277399485' post='2133643']
Capital punishment is not about vengeance.
[/quote]

Well it depends upon how you define vengeance.

Vengeance on part of an individual is wrong, but vengeance on part of the State it is not always wrong so long as it is done in justice.

[url="http://www.catholicreference.net/index.cfm?id=37059"]Vengeance[/url]

The infliction of punishment on someone who has done moral wrong. In this sense, only God has the right to avenge wrongdoing. He may delegate this right to those in legitimate authority, as St. Paul declares, speaking of civil rulers, that "the authorities are there to serve God; they carry out God's revenge by punishing wrongdoers" (Romans 13:4). (Etym. Latin vindicare, to revenge, vindicate.)

[dominicansoul]

I think it is a little over the top to grant "dead men walking" elaborate last dinners and such...

I don't see how anyone in their situation could even eat, much less breathe...

[CatherineM]

Having spent some time on death row (and no, not on that side of the bars), the guards like for them to have large meals about 48 hours prior to their "appointment" the richer the better. When they are full, they tend to be calmer, or even sleep it off. Rich food after prison fare tends to go pretty quick through their system, and the more cleaned out they are the day before, the less mess to clean up after they are dead.

[XIX]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='24 June 2010 - 04:37 PM' timestamp='1277408279' post='2133710']
Well it depends upon how you define vengeance.

Vengeance on part of an individual is wrong, but vengeance on part of the State it is not always wrong so long as it is done in justice.

[url="http://www.catholicreference.net/index.cfm?id=37059"]Vengeance[/url]

The infliction of punishment on someone who has done moral wrong. In this sense, only God has the right to avenge wrongdoing. He may delegate this right to those in legitimate authority, as St. Paul declares, speaking of civil rulers, that "the authorities are there to serve God; they carry out God's revenge by punishing wrongdoers" (Romans 13:4). (Etym. Latin vindicare, to revenge, vindicate.)
[/quote]
...not sure how that definition of vengeance relates to the way we view it today. Revenge/vindiate is different from saying "well he deserves to die so let's give him what he deserves."

The Magesterium seems to presuppose that vengeance is not a valid motivation for capital punishment. The traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude, presupposing full ascertainment of the identity and responsibility of the offender, recourse to the death penalty, when this is the only practicable way to defend the lives of human beings effectively against the aggressor.
"If, instead, bloodless means are sufficient to defend against the aggressor and to protect the safety of persons, public authority should limit itself to such means, because they better correspond to the concrete conditions of the common good and are more in conformity to the dignity of the human person.
[quote]
"Today, in fact, given the means at the State's disposal to effectively repress crime by rendering inoffensive the one who has committed it, without depriving him definitively of the possibility of redeeming himself, cases of absolute necessity for suppression of the offender 'today ... are very rare, if not practically non-existent.'"[/quote]
Whether we need the death penalty to repress the offender is mostly speculation on the part of the Catechism and reasonable people can take either side of that debate. My point is that the Catechism doesn't even see the need to address vengeance as a reason for using the death penalty, seemingly because it's not a valid reason.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='24 June 2010 - 03:37 PM' timestamp='1277408279' post='2133710']
Well it depends upon how you define vengeance.

Vengeance on part of an individual is wrong, but vengeance on part of the State it is not always wrong so long as it is done in justice.

[url="http://www.catholicreference.net/index.cfm?id=37059"]Vengeance[/url]

The infliction of punishment on someone who has done moral wrong. In this sense, only God has the right to avenge wrongdoing. He may delegate this right to those in legitimate authority, as St. Paul declares, speaking of civil rulers, that "the authorities are there to serve God; they carry out God's revenge by punishing wrongdoers" (Romans 13:4). (Etym. Latin vindicare, to revenge, vindicate.)
[/quote]

Merriam-Webster defines "vengeance" as "punishment inflicted in retaliation for an injury or offense". Capital punishment is not about retaliation (that would be a misuse) but about justice and the safety of society.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='24 June 2010 - 04:57 PM' timestamp='1277413058' post='2133752']
Merriam-Webster defines "vengeance" as "punishment inflicted in retaliation for an injury or offense". Capital punishment is not about retaliation (that would be a misuse) but about justice and the safety of society.
[/quote]

Webster's is speaking of the individual use of vengeance. Again depends on how you define it. A individual has no right to employ vengeance, "turn the other cheek". However, "vengeance is mine saith the Lord", God can justly employ vengeance, for the blood of innocent murder victims "cries up to God for vengeance", and He listens. Which is why He has appointed the State His "Avenger."

Vengeance like anger can be both just and unjust. It depends upon how and who employs either.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='24 June 2010 - 12:05 PM' timestamp='1277406300' post='2133704']
In that case, I have no idea. Is there a difference?
[/quote]
yes. i read it at an online journal once (perhaps First Things? or the Anchoress? or even here). one we can lose, and the other we can't. we can lose our personal dignity (through sin), but not our human dignity - i think that's how the argument went anyway.

[XIX]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='24 June 2010 - 06:10 PM' timestamp='1277413803' post='2133756']
Webster's is speaking of the individual use of vengeance.
[/quote]
How do you know? Use arguments, not assertions.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Lil Red' date='24 June 2010 - 04:40 PM' timestamp='1277415606' post='2133763']
yes. i read it at an online journal once (perhaps First Things? or the Anchoress? or even here). one we can lose, and the other we can't. we can lose our personal dignity (through sin), but not our human dignity - i think that's how the argument went anyway.
[/quote]
I'd be interested in reading that if you track it down.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='24 June 2010 - 02:53 PM' timestamp='1277416436' post='2133769']
I'd be interested in reading that if you track it down.
[/quote]
i think this is it:
http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2010/02/16/neither-beast-nor-god-gilbert-meilander-on-personal-dignity/

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Lil Red' date='24 June 2010 - 05:06 PM' timestamp='1277417186' post='2133773']
i think this is it:
http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2010/02/16/neither-beast-nor-god-gilbert-meilander-on-personal-dignity/
[/quote]
Interesting. Thanks.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='XIX' date='24 June 2010 - 05:47 PM' timestamp='1277416052' post='2133766']
How do you know? Use arguments, not assertions.
[/quote]

"Infliction of punishment in return for a wrong committed; retribution." Is vengeance as defined by Websters or other similar dictionaries. This actual does not speak of individual use but it is a board term, it can be good or bad. I assumed that Websters had defined it negatively, it has not. Still as individuals we do not have a right to employ vengeance or retribution, this is why we are taught to turn the other cheek, but States are allowed to punish or imprison evil doers, and declare war. The State according to St. Paul is Gods "Avenger" to enact "wrath upon him that does evil". Nothing God does is evil, but scripture clearly states that "vengeance is my saith the Lord", so either God is evil, or vengeance can be just. And God clearly makes the State His mister and Avenger, so again either God is evil, or the State as God's Avenger is good.

avenger

1. To inflict a punishment or penalty in return for; revenge: avenge a murder.
2. To take vengeance on behalf of: avenged their wronged parents.

[Mark of the Cross]

I've seen doco's on US prisons and no thanks, I don't envy anyone in there, if the doco's are true! Understandably it is human emotion that we would feel anger at someone being treated well on their last day outside of hell? At confession I confessed to being angry at illegal boat people being treated so well (Oz) and demanding their rites, while the real refugees can't afford to pay people smugglers. My priest told me that my emotions are not a sin it is how I deal with them! So no there is nothing wrong with feeling angry at someone being treated to KFC. I would feel pity LOL! But anyway considering where they may be headed I think a last meal is a kind act which would be endorsed by Jesus. But yeah still feel angry and don't be ashamed especially if you are a victim or relative.
I answered yes because in Oz we are far too lenient and criminals get far more rites than their victims. The result is that our night spots, public transport and to some extent the roads are no longer a safe place to be.