Rastafarianism

[Resurrexi]

With the holy Catholic Church, I maintain that "God, the beginning and end of all things, can be known with certitude by the natural light of human reason from created things; 'for the invisible things of Him, from the creation of the world, are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made' (Romans 1:20)" (First Ecumenical Vatican Council, [i]Dei Filius[/i]).

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='25 June 2010 - 07:04 PM' timestamp='1277514250' post='2134331']
To clarify for me, does that exclude Protestant Christians?
[/quote]
Yes. Protestants have not maintained the priesthood or the Eucharistic sacrifice, which is the sole acceptable act of worship. Being imperfectly united to the Church through baptism does not make Protestantism "true" or the services of Protestant communities a form of true worship.

Edited June 26, 2010 by Apotheoun

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='25 June 2010 - 08:07 PM' timestamp='1277514443' post='2134338']
Yes. Protestants have not maintained the priesthood or the Eucharistic sacrifice, which is the sole acceptable act of worship. Being imperfectly united to the Church through baptism does not make Protestantism or the services of Protestant communities true worship.
[/quote]
That's what I thought. Thanks.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='25 June 2010 - 07:06 PM' timestamp='1277514374' post='2134336']
With the holy Catholic Church, I maintain that "God, the beginning and end of all things, can be known with certitude by the natural light of human reason from created things; 'for the invisible things of Him, from the creation of the world, are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made' (Romans 1:20)" (First Ecumenical Vatican Council, [i]Dei Filius[/i]).
[/quote]
Is this grasp of God in the abstract faith?

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='25 June 2010 - 07:02 PM' timestamp='1277514138' post='2134328']
Muslims are not idolaters in the strict sense because they do not make idols to worship any longer. That said, neither an idolater nor a heretic offers true worship to God, because the only true act of worship is the Paschal Mystery of Christ.
[/quote]

agreed. I don't see how that applies to the discussion though. I'm saying Islam offers imperfect (quite significantly imperfect) worship to the True God. Not that they give true worship to the true God.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='25 June 2010 - 08:08 PM' timestamp='1277514532' post='2134342']
Is this grasp of God in the abstract faith?
[/quote]

"But the Catholic Church professes that this faith, which is the beginning of human salvation, is a supernatural virtue by which we, with the aid and inspiration of the grace of God, believe that the things revealed by Him are true, not because the intrinsic truth of the revealed things has been perceived by the natural light of reason, but because of the authority of God Himself who reveals them, who can neither deceive nor be deceived" (First Ecumenical Vatican Council, [i]Dei Filius[/i]).

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='25 June 2010 - 07:03 PM' timestamp='1277514211' post='2134329']
A grasp of an abstract notion of divinity through the divine powers in creation is not faith. It has no salvific value, that is, unless you wish to call yourself a Pelagian.
[/quote]

Again, irrelevant. I'm not arguing for any salvific value. I don't believe Islam to be saved because of their flawed worship of God. Only that they do offer worship to the True God, no matter how perverted. I'm quite likely one of the stronger proponents of EENS on the phorum, so it wouldn't make sense for me to say that Islam's flawed worship of God has any salvific value, because I don't believe it does.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='goldenchild17' date='25 June 2010 - 07:11 PM' timestamp='1277514662' post='2134346']
agreed. I don't see how that applies to the discussion though. I'm saying Islam offers imperfect (quite significantly imperfect) worship to the True God. Not that they give true worship to the true God.
[/quote]
What is imperfect worship? This is a concept that is nowhere to be found in the Holy Fathers.

It would be one thing if Islam were a pre-Christian religion which attempted to find the true God, even though true faith - like true worship - can only come from God, but that is not the case with Islam. Islam - as a religion - was founded in open opposition to the Christian faith. Mohammad explicitly denied the dogmas of the Incarnation and the Trinity, and there is simply no way to get around this historic fact.

Edited June 26, 2010 by Apotheoun

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='goldenchild17' date='25 June 2010 - 09:13 PM' timestamp='1277514794' post='2134350']
Again, irrelevant. I'm not arguing for any salvific value. I don't believe Islam to be saved because of their flawed worship of God. Only that they do offer worship to the True God, no matter how perverted. I'm quite likely one of the stronger proponents of EENS on the phorum, so it wouldn't make sense for me to say that Islam's flawed worship of God has any salvific value, because I don't believe it does.
[/quote]

You believe that Muslims worship Jesus Christ, even though they and their god reject Him? Can you please explain your reasoning? I would like to see your opinion and explanation, not a quote.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='25 June 2010 - 08:14 PM' timestamp='1277514879' post='2134352']
You believe that Muslims worship Jesus Christ, even though they and their god reject Him? Can you please explain your reasoning? I would like to see your opinion and explanation, not a quote.
[/quote]

I think that, inasmuch as a Muslim intends to render adoration to the Creator and Lord of the all things, he adores God, the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='25 June 2010 - 09:18 PM' timestamp='1277515096' post='2134355']
I think that, inasmuch as a Muslim intends to render adoration to the Creator and Lord of the all things, he adores God, the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
[/quote]

If an individual openly rejects Christ, then when he prays he is not praying to Christ. Otherwise, one could argue that every individual of any religion adores Christ despite their rejection of Him, which I believe would be theological indifferentism.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='25 June 2010 - 07:14 PM' timestamp='1277514879' post='2134352']
You believe that Muslims worship Jesus Christ, even though they and their god reject Him? Can you please explain your reasoning? I would like to see your opinion and explanation, not a quote.
[/quote]

Well then you'll have to ask someone else. As I've said many times, I'm not a theologian. I don't know the why or the how. I'm a historian (if I can be anything at all). I can't explain why the theologians of the Church say what they do on this matter. I can only record that they do say so, and if they say so, then its good enough for me. I apologize if this isn't good enough for you, but I'm not an intellectual (and especially not in this matter.)

[Apotheoun]

This thread is - like many at Phatmass is going in circles - and so I think I will bow out of it rather than see people become angry at each other.

God bless.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='25 June 2010 - 07:22 PM' timestamp='1277515357' post='2134362']
This thread is - like many at Phatmass is going in circles - and so I think I will bow out of it rather than see people become angry at each other.

God bless.
[/quote]

I as well

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='goldenchild17' date='25 June 2010 - 09:22 PM' timestamp='1277515322' post='2134359']
Well then you'll have to ask someone else. As I've said many times, I'm not a theologian. I don't know the why or the how. I'm a historian (if I can be anything at all). I can't explain why the theologians of the Church say what they do on this matter. I can only record that they do say so, and if they say so, then its good enough for me. I apologize if this isn't good enough for you, but I'm not an intellectual (and especially not in this matter.)
[/quote]

I have come to my conclusion based on the atrocities Allah has called his followers to commit for the good of Islam. My God would never ask me to spread the Gospel through violence, death, and hatred. God Bless.