Rastafarianism

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='25 June 2010 - 08:12 PM' timestamp='1277511176' post='2134278']
Apologies if this sounds harsh, but did you read my post?

The debate right now is whether or not Muslims worship the One True God. I took a step back and essentially said: Okay, let's pretend that Allah [i]is[/i] the same God we worship. If that were the case, then why would Allah (One True God) deny the Holy Trinity and Jesus Christ as both God and man? Moreover, if Allah was the One True God, i.e. The Trinity, why would He appear to Muhammad? Christ already brought the Truth to the world.

My point is that the god Allah is NOT our God. He is either the creation of Muhammad or the Devil. I don't care if I get flamed for saying that either.
[/quote]
You know that Allah simply means (the) God, right (al-ilah/al'lah)? Arabic Christian would refer to what we call "God" as "Allah". Allah's not some new guy made up by Mohammed, it was what God was called by the people of his country. You and I must have a very different view of what defines different "God"s. I do not believe that Presbyterians worship a different God because they have a flawed understanding of Him, thanks to Jean Calvin. Similarly, I do not believe Muslims worship a different God because of a flawed understanding of Him, thanks to Mohammed. Calvin lied, Mohammed lied. I fail to see many distinctions, other than that one pushed Jesus out of the limelight slightly more than the other.

In the end, though, I suppose it doesn't matter much. EENS, yeah?

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' date='25 June 2010 - 08:30 PM' timestamp='1277512235' post='2134291']
I do not believe that Presbyterians worship a different God because they have a flawed understanding of Him, thanks to Jean Calvin. Similarly, I do not believe Muslims worship a different God because of a flawed understanding of Him, thanks to Mohammed. Calvin lied, Mohammed lied. I fail to see many distinctions, other than that one pushed Jesus out of the limelight slightly more than the other.
[/quote]

Muslims have more than a "flawed understanding" of God. They reject the divinity of Jesus Christ. How can they possibly worship Jesus Christ when they reject Him as God and Savior? How can Allah be the One True God when Allah himself rejects Jesus Christ as God and Savior?

[goldenchild17]

well, its been fun as always I'll keep reading, and maybe post again when my references are addressed (other than to say that they are not infallible, as I grant that is likely).

peace out homeskilletbiscuits

[Apotheoun]

The Church's liturgy is the sole true worship of God, for it is the anamnesis of Christ's saving work. Nothing else can truly glorify and honor God the Father.

[HisChildForever]

Furthermore, Protestants - through their valid baptism - are united to the Church, although imperfectly. The same cannot be said for Muslims.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='25 June 2010 - 08:34 PM' timestamp='1277512459' post='2134295']
Muslims have more than a "flawed understanding" of God. They reject the divinity of Jesus Christ. How can they possibly worship Jesus Christ when they reject Him as God and Savior? How can Allah be the One True God when Allah himself rejects Jesus Christ as God and Savior?
[/quote]
How can the God of the Presbyterians be the same God when they say that Jesus did not pour out His blood for you and for many, but rather only for His "elect" whom He has already marked, and that those who are condemned can do nothing to be saved?

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='25 June 2010 - 08:36 PM' timestamp='1277512579' post='2134297']
The Church's liturgy is the sole true worship of God, for it is the anamnesis of Christ's saving work. Nothing else can truly glorify and honor God the Father.
[/quote]
You'll see that I noted this in my original post, albeit in more...quaint terms.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='goldenchild17' date='25 June 2010 - 08:34 PM' timestamp='1277512464' post='2134296']
well, its been fun as always I'll keep reading, and maybe post again when my references are addressed (other than to say that they are not infallible, as I grant that is likely).

peace out homeskilletbiscuits
[/quote]

The god of Islam cannot possibly be Jesus Christ, for the god of Islam has taught his followers to spread Islam through the sword - something that is contrary to the Gospel.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='25 June 2010 - 06:38 PM' timestamp='1277512725' post='2134302']
The god of Islam cannot possibly be Jesus Christ, for the god of Islam has taught his followers to spread Islam through the sword - something that is contrary to the Gospel.
[/quote]

you've said the same thing quite a few times now. I get it repeating it isn't going to change my mind, or show me that you've addressed it fairly.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' date='25 June 2010 - 08:37 PM' timestamp='1277512651' post='2134300']
How can the God of the Presbyterians be the same God when they say that Jesus did not pour out His blood for you and for many, but rather only for His "elect" whom He has already marked, and that those who are condemned can do nothing to be saved?
[/quote]

I said Muslims have more than a flawed understanding of God than the Presbyterians. This does not mean that the Presbyterians do not have a flawed understanding.

I believe that when speculating on the question "Is Allah the One True God" (which we should not even be speculating on, in my opinion, as it is nonsense to believe that Allah and Jesus Christ are the same) we must examine Islam and the One True God, i.e. Catholicism, without pulling other religions into it. Interestingly, this is a "tactic" Muslims tend to use when Islam is challenged. They point the finger elsewhere to divert the attention off of Islam.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='goldenchild17' date='25 June 2010 - 08:40 PM' timestamp='1277512844' post='2134303']
you've said the same thing quite a few times now. I get it repeating it isn't going to change my mind, or show me that you've addressed it fairly.
[/quote]

The Holy Catholic Church does not ask me to believe that Allah is my God.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' date='25 June 2010 - 06:38 PM' timestamp='1277512704' post='2134301']
You'll see that I noted this in my original post, albeit in more...quaint terms.
[/quote]
Yes, I noted that when I voted several days ago. Nevertheless, I voted only for the Orthodox Church, because of those listed they alone have a valid priesthood and Eucharistic liturgy.

[HisChildForever]

Pope Gregory VII (1020-1085), written in 1076 to al-Nasir, Prince of Bougie (in Algeria):
[quote]'You and I owe this charity to one another even more than we owe it to other people, [b]as we recognise and profess - in different ways[/b], it is true - the One God, whom we praise and venerate each day as the creator of all and master of the world, according to the words of the Apostle: For he is our peace,; in his flesh he has made both groups into one' (Eph 2,14).[/quote]

There is only one way to the Father, and that is through Jesus Christ.

Catechism of Pope Pius X:
[quote]12 Q. Who are infidels?
A. Infidels are those who have not been baptised and do not believe in Jesus Christ, because they either believe in and worship false gods as idolaters do, or though admitting one true God, they do not believe in the Messiah, neither as already come in the Person of Jesus Christ, nor as to come; for instance, Mohammedans and the like. Catechism of Pope Pius X (Section Communion of Saints, Q. 12)[/quote]

Of course Muslims profess that they follow the One True God; there version of who the One True God is, however, is not the same God we follow.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='25 June 2010 - 08:41 PM' timestamp='1277512899' post='2134304']
I believe that when speculating on the question "Is Allah the One True God" (which we should not even be speculating on, in my opinion, as it is nonsense to believe that Allah and Jesus Christ are the same) we must examine Islam and the One True God, i.e. Catholicism, without pulling other religions into it. Interestingly, this is a "tactic" Muslims tend to use when Islam is challenged. They point the finger elsewhere to divert the attention off of Islam.
[/quote]
Better not tell that to the Arabic-speaking Catholics:
(John 3:16, Revised Catholic Arabic Bible)

فإن الله أحب العالم حتى إنه جاد بابنه الوحيد لكي لا يهلك كل من يؤمن به بل تكون له الحياة الأبدية.
[color="#FFFFFF"]...............................................................................................[/color]__
(Allah underlined)

Edited June 26, 2010 by USAirwaysIHS

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='25 June 2010 - 06:41 PM' timestamp='1277512899' post='2134304']
I said Muslims have more than a flawed understanding of God than the Presbyterians. This does not mean that the Presbyterians do not have a flawed understanding. [/quote]

I fail to see how degree of flaw has anything to do with it. If Muslims don't worship God because they have a flawed image of God, then so does every other religion besides Catholicism (I'd go so far as to include E. Orthodox due to the Filioque).

[quote]I believe that when speculating on the question "Is Allah the One True God" (which we should not even be speculating on, in my opinion, as it is nonsense to believe that Allah and Jesus Christ are the same) we must examine Islam and the One True God, i.e. Catholicism, without pulling other religions into it. Interestingly, this is a "tactic" Muslims tend to use when Islam is challenged. They point the finger elsewhere to divert the attention off of Islam.
[/quote]

I'm the only one who posted sources from Catholic theologians. If you want to point the diverging finger at me, be my guest. I've been called far worse in my time here. Honestly, name calling and accusations really have no effect on me anymore.

As I've said before, this is not an infallible teaching so it's not particularly life or death that we agree. I have important theologians behind me on this one. Perhaps you do too, however I couldn't begin to guess as there has been only your opinion posted (and quite repeatedly). If its between your opinion, and the opinion of these men, I think I've made it clear whose I choose.

I've continued this longer than I intended, as it seems to only be breaking down into emotional posting now. That doesn't do any of us any good in determining the right answer, so I'm going to be done now.