"categories" Of Communities

[morostheos]

To get back to the original question, I think it's a really good one - are there other online groups of discerners who are more interested in less traditional communities?

[osapientia]

[quote name='Thomist-in-Training' date='16 June 2010 - 10:16 PM' timestamp='1276737404' post='2130183']
Ay yay yay. My phrasing probably came across as facetious, but it is literally true, as cmariadiaz said (thanks) that they did strike me as outside of the box in [i]several [/i]ways (active or contemplative? neither/both) which made me think and which I am still trying to process. If I visited more Benedictine communities maybe that part would also be clearer to me, or I would have more things that could not be neatly categorized. I certainly [b]didn't [/b]mean they are unfaithful. I don't think it's my job to categorize religious communities for everyone, but as a human being, I [i]do[/i] try to categorize things in my head, which most people do, I assume. So, when krissylou asked about it, I posted what I thought.
I don't believe that this is offensive to them, actually, I think that is probably the kind of thing they would be pleased about (not being able to be put into a slot).

I may, however, be wrong. This has been known to happen.
[/quote]

Maybe I can offer some insight. Regina Laudis is a Benedictine monastic community. As most Benedictine's they observe constitutional rather than papal enclosure (Solesmes would be a notable exception in this regard as they are Benedictine's who observe papal enclosure). The Rule of St. Benedict addresses "monks on a journey" and so one could certainly then conclude that the Holy Father, St Benedict did not mean for his monks to observe the kind of enclosure offered by say, a Carmelite. Regina Laudis is true to the Rule of St. Benedict in this regard, they do "travel" (though they don't go on "vacation" per se). Three (I think that's the number) of them went to university to earn PhD degrees that would benefit the work of the abbey and one of them (The coagulated milk Nun, Sr. Noella Marcellino) did a year of study in France on a Fullbright scholarship. Mother Dolores Hart, the prioress and former actress, has testified before Congress on issues related to a particular illness The guest mistress interacts regularly with guests and guests of the monastery are afforded the opportunity to work directly with the nuns, though not every nun would interact with a guest for something like an informal "talk" or a "walk outside"....one would most likely do this kind of thing with the guest mistress, prioress or abbess only.

I think we understand this as "different" because most Benedictine communities have been lumped together with other kinds of enclosed communities while RL takes a bit of a more "ancient observance" stance. In fact they describe themselves as "Benedictine nuns of The Ancient Observance". We tend to think the word "monastic" means "cloistered" in a very strict sense and that just isn't so. Benedictine monastic communities became more typically cloistered as time went on but they were not originally so. They are "stable in the monastery" and they don't go journeying about willy nilly from place to place, but they are not Carmelites or Poor Clares...(excepting Solesmes as I already mentioned) A good example would be to look at "active" Benedictine communities, though not considered cloistered by our modern understanding of that word, they are monastic and observe a monastic rule of life, the Rule of St. Benedict.

I think that the most obvious differences at RL are that they have some fairly "high profile" (at least formerly) members, that they offer those internships to lay persons and that they do send their nuns for higher education degrees when necessary. They place a high value on education and a track record for excellence which is their legacy from their foundress, Lady Abbess Benedict Duss, OSB who was a physician and friend of Pope Paul VI. At one point the Holy Father told her (I paraphrase) that the nuns should strive for excellence in all things in the monastery and she carried that throughout her religious life, passing it on to the community.

They are particularly artistic and perform most (if not all) of what would typically be known as "monastic arts" and from a crafts perspective most of them would be considered "masters". They have/have had several attorneys in the community, at least one physician that I know of, a former NY State senator, a princess (she has now passed away) and the grandchild of a very very famous 5 Star US General (there is a great miracle story around her coming to RL).

I could probably go on..but I think you get the picture.....yes, Thomist-in-training, I agree that they are "outside the box" but when it is necessary to categorize (and I think sometimes it is) communities I believe they are rightly placed with the conservative communities. I think the most important thing to know about them is that they are observant Benedictines in good standing with The Church....that said, it can be quite a journey to get to know them well and one I have found worth the effort....categorizing them as something other than the three "main" categories you had originally proposed (I think it was three) might actually keep someone from wanting to get to know them and I think that would be a shame. They are not a community for everyone...no community is, but they are certainly well worth getting to know.

There are some other VS posters who know this community well...perhaps they might offer their thoughts and/or correct me if I've interpreted or communicated something incorrectly.

Oh, one more thing....their names are very interesting (at least I think so).

Pax,
Osap
*edited for typo

Edited June 17, 2010 by osapientia

[TradMom]

+Praised be Jesus Christ!

Dear All,

Osap did a wonderful job of thoroughly explaining Regina Laudis. The only thing I could possibly add is that as Benedictines (just like the nuns I wrote about previously at St. Scholastica's), they LIVE St. Benedict's Rule - which has a special emphasis on hospitality. So, if any of you are in that area and would like a retreat, I recommend going there. Their chant is particularly beautiful (did we mention they do the ENTIRE Divine Office in Latin?) and they have received much attention for what they bring to Holy Mother Church. As Benedictines in offering hospitality, a guest has the "opportunity" to work with the community during their stay. They are quite lovely in that the beginning work is very general (perhaps raking, or dusting) and depending upon one's needs/desires/etc., could end up anywhere! I have had many retreats there and have done the following: painted a room, worked in the gift shop, cleaned the guest house, pulled vegetables (carrots, I think - some kind of root vegetables) inside the cloister garden (which I received permission for), helped in the iron forge (oh, and I made myself a lovely little hook where my robe hangs!) --- and much more. The more they get to know you (if you return, write and take the time to get to know them), the better able they are to match you with a particular job. My dear friend who went with me (one time), ended up working out in one of the fields, hauling lumber. Needless to say, my pregnancy didn't lend itself to such hard work! (A secret relief!)

They have three guesthouses - one for men, one for women and one for families. They ARE very traditional in that they they do not use the internet, they do not have an "assigned" Vocation Mistress and one communicates with them by letter. Once you arrive, it is expected to meet with one of the Nuns - for as long as I have known - it has been a fantastic nun who also serves the Community as Portress and also as a very gifted artist. One would meet her through the grille, and follow up a little bit about the initial letter written. IF you want to go on retreat and participate in the prayer life and not work, just explain that and you will be respected. Most people do consider the participation in their work to be a privilege, however. In working with them and your initial interview with the Sister Portress or Sister Guest Mistress, you might find yourself scheduled to meet with another sister. (Usually through the grille.) You might wonder why this is so, and before you know it, you will find out that you have lots in common...perhaps you and this Sister went to the same school, have the same degree, both like purple - whatever! They do everything they can (as good Benedictines) to foster relationship. As with most traditional Monasteries, the meals are eaten in this manner: Breakfast is simple, eaten in the guest house according to the guest's needs...cereal, muffins, toast, eggs, nuts, etc. "Pick-Up." Lunch is the main meal of the day and consists of a wide variety of foods with dessert (I have been there a couple of times where meat was served - and to me, meat includes fish, chicken, pork and beef - "anything with eyes" and no - I'm not a strict veggie, but try to limit meat.)Great news about the meals - you can pick and choose what you eat as the dishes are passed around. For the sake of charity, and in respect for their hospitality, I typically at least take a little of whatever is offered that I don't like because I know that Sister Cook has spent time counting the guests. No problem in the dessert department! Dinner or supper is very light - a soup (which they make fresh daily) - a wheel of their delicious homemade c*h*e*e*s*e! - and a terrific salad (try to go when it is not snowing - they have sensational gardens). Again, if you don't want to eat anything, you can pass it by. Oh! They also make bread daily, so that is another treat to look forward to. The women eat in one of the parlor rooms (when meals are not being had, this room can be used as a meeting room as it has a full grille, and ample room to pass through large dishes). The men eat in their own guest house, and the families can either cook and eat in their own guest house (depending upon their size, children, etc.) or split up accordingly.

A donation is welcomed after the retreat, but not necessary.

As for the original question regarding "categories" of communities, I think for personal use this might a good idea, but I would not recommend sharing it on a forum such as this one for the reasons expressed in the comments above.

There are only so many official categories a community might fit into. A habit does not necessarily mean a community is orthodox or traditional - just as lack of full habit does not reveal the contrary. For reference, I would invite any interested discerners to look at a pre-Vatican II copy of McCarthy's Guide. Therein you will find a nice number of communities who did not wear the habit (as we know it - with veils, etc.) As an example, I wonder if any of you know of the dear Father Lovasik's foundation of religious women? They were in the common dress of the time (1950's). If you can find a copy, you will see it. They would most certainly be considered very traditional, orthodox, etc. The SDSH do not wear a "traditional" habit but they do dress in common, with a VERY prominent pin and are VERY orthodox/traditional.

There are two groups which have sort of "divided" women's religious communities. One is the Leadership Conference of Women Religious http://www.lcwr.org/. I would "bet" that most of our Phatmassers would not be drawn to the communities within this group, but I believe that has more to do with habits/dress than other qualities (and that is ONLY my opinion). I feel many discerners today WANT to wear a full, traditional habit and immediately dismiss communities that don't based only on that. The second group is the Council of Major Superiors of Women http://www.cmswr.org/ - which most likely will appeal to our Phatmassers.

As for further organization of women's communities...I would invite you to consider the different spiritualities (as an example, you would be surprised at how many Orders are Ignatian based!). As for the Carmelites, a lot has been written here about the Constitutions and the different federations/associations. If you are seriously looking at a Carmel, you should be prepared to understand the difference (not only regarding the Constitutions) but the difference in the Associations and why - in fact - there are some Carmels that do not belong to ANY.

I have digressed from the OP's original question. Apologies! This particular phorum does in fact lean towards the more "conservative" spectrum of all things Catholic. The Baltimore Carmel is lovely, very progressive, very faithful and very true to their Carmelite spirit - but without a habit (though the last time I visited, they did wear their mantle for prayer). As I mentioned above, I really have come to see (and this holds true in my own family) we, as a Church, are experiencing a renewal of women "wanting" the experience of wearing a habit, standing out, being a witness (and believe me! I do not think the only way of witnessing is through a habit!) and the conversations here tend to be centered on habits/outward appearances. That is a major attraction here. We have had a couple of women enter more progressive orders and sadly, in most cases, they did not receive the kind of support our more "traditional" vocations have received, though I am not suggesting in any way that they were treated unkindly.

Here are some additional resources that you might find helpful, in addition to Sister Julie's blog. These resources tend to be more inclusive and might help you. I know there are private "groups" through Yahoo and other services (including Facebook) that offer support and means of connection. As always, please use caution when revealing personal details as the internet is not safe (no matter how many times we are assured that everything is fine!). I am sure you know the basic rules of keeping yourself safe and I am sure this warning is unnecessary, but that's the "Mom" in me!

May God bless and reward you as continue to search to serve Him more fully.

Pax,
TradMom

http://www.vocation-network.org/
http://www.religiousministries.com/
http://www.catholiclinks.org/women.htm

[osapientia]

[quote name='TradMom' date='17 June 2010 - 03:52 PM' timestamp='1276800739' post='2130558']
+Praised be Jesus Christ!


May God bless and reward you as continue to search to serve Him more fully.

Pax,
TradMom

http://www.vocation-network.org/
http://www.religiousministries.com/
http://www.catholiclinks.org/women.htm
[/quote]
Oh my gosh, I forgot about the bread and the c*h*e*e*s*e* and the milk..the fabulous, fresh, raw milk. WONDERFUL. Once when I stayed for a couple of weeks I was assigned to work in both the dairy and the bakery. Both were marvelous experiences which I thoroughly enjoyed. In fact, I had my first and only COW-puccino there. For those who have never had the experience of having their first cup of coffee in the morning while milking a cow...let me just say that there is abundant and warm milk available for that cup of coffee and it is rather FROTHY. Hence..the COW-puccino.

As for working in the bakery..well let me just say that all is done with absolute SURGICAL precision and cleanliness...which I surmise is mostly because the dear nun who runs the bakery was a physician..in fact, she was the first female gastroenterologist in the US.

Oh and I forgot one more thing....the beautiful church you see on their website was built by their own hands from lumber they cut and planed themselves....they make their own coffins too and the grille in the church was forged by their "Sr. Blacksmith" on the property where TradMom made her little hook.

Pax,
Osap

Edited June 17, 2010 by osapientia

[krissylou]

Okay, I so need to figure out a time to go there!

[osapientia]

[quote name='krissylou' date='17 June 2010 - 05:14 PM' timestamp='1276805667' post='2130593']
Okay, I so need to figure out a time to go there!
[/quote]
It's different. <big big wink and a smile> Sorry, I couldn't resist.

[dakurgie]

[quote name='TradMom' date='17 June 2010 - 01:52 PM' timestamp='1276800739' post='2130558']
+Praised be Jesus Christ!



May God bless and reward you as continue to search to serve Him more fully.

Pax,
TradMom

http://www.vocation-network.org/
http://www.religiousministries.com/
http://www.catholiclinks.org/women.htm
[/quote]


Dear TradMom,

Thank you for your wisdom and guidance! Although, I do not post to the phorum very often, I do read it daily and throughly enjoy your insights in your comments. May God bless you. I think, I too, need to visit Reginia Lauds after reading.

Blessings,

Donna

[DevotedtoHim]

Osap and TradMom,

I love you both! I've been to Regina Laudis (with TradMom!!!) and I love it. I have one thing to add. One of the nuns at Regina Laudis who does a lot of work with the guests told me that she is actually an Extern Nun. She is the one that picked up another guest at the airport, and I am pretty sure she is one of the few that actually drives when necessary (on a regular basis). I don't know enough about Canon Law especially in regards to monastic life, but I am just telling you what she told me personally. I spent a whole day working with her, and she is pretty much one of the main nuns that the guests get to know.

I have my own category list and as I find out more information about an order, I check off a box (or type in the results). You can borrow it if you want to! I keep it in an excel doc.

Name
Active
Contemplative
Both A/C
Monastic
Cloistered Papally
Cloistered Constitutional
Cloistered Papally/Constitutional
Convents
Regular housing
Apartments
Motherhouse Location
International Leadership or Motherhouse (like for the Dominicans they have their "Generalate" in Rome)
Self Contained (i.e., some Carmels only answer to their immediate Bishop)
Vocation Mistress
Vocation Retreat
Number of Members
New Name (I really want to join an order that lets me get a new name)
Liturgy of the Office
Eucharistic Adoration
Spirituality (This I have to type in)
Dowry
Psych Testing (Some make you take a lot of tests)
Leadership Membership (either of the two TradMom mentioned - the LCRW or the CMSWR or maybe they are too new)
Length of time in existence (I have to type in)
Saints (some have too many to count 100+, some have one or two or like Mother Teresa's order, one in the works!)
Special Practices (type in)
Special Devotions (type in)
Special Education (type in - let's say a nursing order)
Ministry (if contemplative, put prayer)
Finances (I have a whole sub set of questions but I won't list everything. But if you get serious, make sure they have good finances and for a cloistered community, make sure they either have good benefactors or good work, and make sure you like it. I know RL isn't for me because I am a little lazy in the manual labor department and I don't really like that stuff so probably a smaller cloistered situation is better where I won't be farming or helping. I like to study and read, so right now, I'm back to the Dominicans.)
Vocation Packet
Website

Then I keep files on the different orders if I have actually been moved to meet them or go on retreat with them.

Also, TradMom made the coolest list of things to look for in a community like things to ask questions about that I use.

That has saved me a lot of time and work. I think you are new, so you should absolutely check all the old threads about discernment and stuff because I think that will help you. Also, welcome and we are all God's children, so I hope you remain open to wherever the Spirit calls you! I wrote to the Baltimore Carmel once. I would really like to go visit them. I think they might be a little too progressive for me, but I think they are very very holy women.

God bless you!

Katherine

[cmaD2006]

Regina Laudis seems like a wonderful group of women to visit ... at least for a Retreat! I'll keep them in mind for next year (I have my yearly retreat already booked ... counting the days).

[osapientia]

[quote name='DevotedtoHim' date='17 June 2010 - 06:37 PM' timestamp='1276810626' post='2130636']
Osap and TradMom,

I love you both! I've been to Regina Laudis (with TradMom!!!) and I love it. I have one thing to add. One of the nuns at Regina Laudis who does a lot of work with the guests told me that she is actually an Extern Nun. She is the one that picked up another guest at the airport, and I am pretty sure she is one of the few that actually drives when necessary (on a regular basis). I don't know enough about Canon Law especially in regards to monastic life, but I am just telling you what she told me personally. I spent a whole day working with her, and she is pretty much one of the main nuns that the guests get to know.

I have my own category list and as I find out more information about an order, I check off a box (or type in the results). You can borrow it if you want to! I keep it in an excel doc.

Name
Active
Contemplative
Both A/C
Monastic
Cloistered Papally
Cloistered Constitutional
Cloistered Papally/Constitutional
Convents
Regular housing
Apartments
Motherhouse Location
International Leadership or Motherhouse (like for the Dominicans they have their "Generalate" in Rome)
Self Contained (i.e., some Carmels only answer to their immediate Bishop)
Vocation Mistress
Vocation Retreat
Number of Members
New Name (I really want to join an order that lets me get a new name)
Liturgy of the Office
Eucharistic Adoration
Spirituality (This I have to type in)
Dowry
Psych Testing (Some make you take a lot of tests)
Leadership Membership (either of the two TradMom mentioned - the LCRW or the CMSWR or maybe they are too new)
Length of time in existence (I have to type in)
Saints (some have too many to count 100+, some have one or two or like Mother Teresa's order, one in the works!)
Special Practices (type in)
Special Devotions (type in)
Special Education (type in - let's say a nursing order)
Ministry (if contemplative, put prayer)
Finances (I have a whole sub set of questions but I won't list everything. But if you get serious, make sure they have good finances and for a cloistered community, make sure they either have good benefactors or good work, and make sure you like it. I know RL isn't for me because I am a little lazy in the manual labor department and I don't really like that stuff so probably a smaller cloistered situation is better where I won't be farming or helping. I like to study and read, so right now, I'm back to the Dominicans.)
Vocation Packet
Website

Then I keep files on the different orders if I have actually been moved to meet them or go on retreat with them.

Also, TradMom made the coolest list of things to look for in a community like things to ask questions about that I use.

That has saved me a lot of time and work. I think you are new, so you should absolutely check all the old threads about discernment and stuff because I think that will help you. Also, welcome and we are all God's children, so I hope you remain open to wherever the Spirit calls you! I wrote to the Baltimore Carmel once. I would really like to go visit them. I think they might be a little too progressive for me, but I think they are very very holy women.

God bless you!

Katherine
[/quote]

Katherine, I think the sister may have used the word "extern" rather than have to explain constitutional vs papal enclosure because extern (as a way to describe a particular nun's activities) is readily understood among those who visit enclosed communities of every type.

It may be the same type of thing regarding their titles - they have maintained the custom from their founding abbey at Jouarre (sp?) France, of giving the title of "Mother" to all the finally professed sisters....if you noticed when an individual nun introduces herself to someone she uses "Sister" rather than "Mother" even though she may officially be "Mother"....although I have also been told that this is a practice in humility, though I think the "less confusing" aspect also applies.

I suppose it's possible I have misunderstood what I've been told about their observance and am therefore wrong about it (it certainly has happened every now and again ) but I am rather certain that they observe constitutional enclosure and have no need of "official" externs...though it is possible that they use that term to designate the sister that goes out on a regular basis such as the sister you describe.

Pax,
Osap
PS Thanks for the "love you"...love you back. That's quite a list you've got there.

[laetitia crucis]

[quote name='DevotedtoHim' date='17 June 2010 - 05:37 PM' timestamp='1276810626' post='2130636']
...

I have my own category list and as I find out more information about an order, I check off a box (or type in the results). You can borrow it if you want to! I keep it in an excel doc.

Name
Active
Contemplative
Both A/C
Monastic
Cloistered Papally
Cloistered Constitutional
Cloistered Papally/Constitutional
Convents
Regular housing
Apartments
Motherhouse Location
International Leadership or Motherhouse (like for the Dominicans they have their "Generalate" in Rome)
Self Contained (i.e., some Carmels only answer to their immediate Bishop)
Vocation Mistress
Vocation Retreat
Number of Members
New Name (I really want to join an order that lets me get a new name)
Liturgy of the Office
Eucharistic Adoration
Spirituality (This I have to type in)
Dowry
Psych Testing (Some make you take a lot of tests)
Leadership Membership (either of the two TradMom mentioned - the LCRW or the CMSWR or maybe they are too new)
Length of time in existence (I have to type in)
Saints (some have too many to count 100+, some have one or two or like Mother Teresa's order, one in the works!)
Special Practices (type in)
Special Devotions (type in)
Special Education (type in - let's say a nursing order)
Ministry (if contemplative, put prayer)
Finances (I have a whole sub set of questions but I won't list everything. But if you get serious, make sure they have good finances and for a cloistered community, make sure they either have good benefactors or good work, and make sure you like it. I know RL isn't for me because I am a little lazy in the manual labor department and I don't really like that stuff so probably a smaller cloistered situation is better where I won't be farming or helping. I like to study and read, so right now, I'm back to the Dominicans.)
Vocation Packet
Website

Then I keep files on the different orders if I have actually been moved to meet them or go on retreat with them.

...
[/quote]

The fact that you have this list AND keep excel files on this makes me very happy! Really, I think if you had told me this in person, I probably would have hugged you out of sheer joy for your awesome organizational skills!

During my first round of discernment, I kept a similar list, but in my "discernment book"... which was kind of like a scrapbook and journal in one about each community I made contact with.

So... have you ever considered the [url="http://www.dominicansrs.co.uk"]Dominican Sisters of St. Joseph[/url].

[OnlySunshine]

[quote name='laetitia crucis' date='17 June 2010 - 09:21 PM' timestamp='1276824111' post='2130699']
The fact that you have this list AND keep excel files on this makes me very happy! Really, I think if you had told me this in person, I probably would have hugged you out of sheer joy for your awesome organizational skills!

During my first round of discernment, I kept a similar list, but in my "discernment book"... which was kind of like a scrapbook and journal in one about each community I made contact with.

So... have you ever considered the [url="http://www.dominicansrs.co.uk"]Dominican Sisters of St. Joseph[/url].
[/quote]


The way you talk about them makes me want to visit them. Perhaps you should do a vocation plug for them.

[TeresaBenedicta]

[quote name='MaterMisericordiae' date='17 June 2010 - 10:50 PM' timestamp='1276825805' post='2130711']
The way you talk about them makes me want to visit them. Perhaps you should do a vocation plug for them.
[/quote]

Seriously, I would totally go and visit them... if they were in the US. LC, I'm telling you, you need to convince them to open a convent in the US!!

[vee]

[quote name='TeresaBenedicta' date='17 June 2010 - 09:36 PM' timestamp='1276828575' post='2130737']
Seriously, I would totally go and visit them... if they were in the US. LC, I'm telling you, you need to convince them to open a convent in the US!!
[/quote]

Or Canada

[laetitia crucis]

[quote name='MaterMisericordiae' date='17 June 2010 - 09:50 PM' timestamp='1276825805' post='2130711']
The way you talk about them makes me want to visit them. Perhaps you should do a vocation plug for them.
[/quote]

....how should I go about this plug? *ponders*

[quote name='TeresaBenedicta' date='17 June 2010 - 10:36 PM' timestamp='1276828575' post='2130737']
Seriously, I would totally go and visit them... if they were in the US. LC, I'm telling you, you need to convince them to open a convent in the US!!
[/quote]

The [url="http://www.op-stjoseph.org/"]Eastern Province of Dominican Friars[/url] (aka the Dominican Province of Who? -- [i]St. Joseph[/i] ) really wants the Sisters to open up a convent in the U.S. I think it could be a real possibility in the future, especially once (God willing) vocations start rolling in... *winkwinknudgenudge* *COUGH*

Personally, I would [i]love[/i] a mission the U.S.!

[quote name='vee8' date='17 June 2010 - 10:50 PM' timestamp='1276829403' post='2130743']
Or Canada
[/quote]

I'd be up for that, too!