Smoking Weed

[musturde]

I saw the scholarly thread on this and had to put this up for debate. I had an INTS class where we had to debate legalization of marijuana and there are a lot of ups including the end of drug trafficking (and drug mules). Also, most medical professionals will say marijuana in moderation is less harmful than alcohol. There's even a group of Police who are fighting for the legalization of this drug because the pros of legalization outweigh the cons (http://www.leap.cc/cms/index.php). I apologize if I broke any rules by debating with a thread in the scholar board but I believe being quiet on this issue would do no good, especially if the person curious was concerned on the moral gravity of this issue. Anybody agree? Disagree?

Edited June 15, 2010 by musturde

[Nihil Obstat]

In my opinion, I've never heard a strong argument against marijuana use that could not also be applied to alcohol, and on the flip side it seems that most if not all arguments for alcohol can be applied to marijuana. I would like to be wrong about this, and would welcome being corrected, but so far it's not working for me.

[MithLuin]

Legality and morality are separate issues, of course.

It is legal for an adult to drink alcohol, and illegal for most people to smoke marijuana.

But the use of alcohol is not always (or even generally) free from sin. Drinking to the point of drunkenness is explicitly condemned in the Bible, and gluttony of any sort is one of the seven deadly sins. For anyone who knows an alcoholic, it's pretty obvious that the addiction is extremely damaging to the family.

Marijuana is not good for you, which isn't terribly surprising, but from a moral standpoint, you'd have to look at when it is wrong to harm your body and at what point it becomes sinful. Meaning, most of us could probably do a better job of taking care of ourselves, but we don't generally consider minor neglect sinful. Personally, I don't get why anyone would want to take drugs (I don't even like taking medicine when I'm sick), so it really is not something that crosses my radar (using marijuana, I mean). I'm pretty sure that frequent use of it would be a vice (like many others), but it's not something I've given a lot of thought to.

[musturde]

[quote name='MithLuin' date='15 June 2010 - 03:47 PM' timestamp='1276631227' post='2129399']
Legality and morality are separate issues, of course.

It is legal for an adult to drink alcohol, and illegal for most people to smoke marijuana.

But the use of alcohol is not always (or even generally) free from sin. Drinking to the point of drunkenness is explicitly condemned in the Bible, and gluttony of any sort is one of the seven deadly sins. For anyone who knows an alcoholic, it's pretty obvious that the addiction is extremely damaging to the family.
[/quote]
That's true but I think getting drunk is not completely condemned. Jesus got people drunk in Lebanon. I mean, after the first batch of wine, people would already be tipsy.
EDIT: to clarify, I think the bible more specifically condemns getting drunk to the degree of being much more likely to act sinfully.

Edited June 15, 2010 by musturde

[Ziggamafu]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='15 June 2010 - 03:37 PM' timestamp='1276630659' post='2129391']
In my opinion, I've never heard a strong argument against marijuana use that could not also be applied to alcohol, and on the flip side it seems that most if not all arguments for alcohol can be applied to marijuana. I would like to be wrong about this, and would welcome being corrected, but so far it's not working for me.
[/quote]


[img]http://www.cocaine.org/cokepope.jpg[/img]
[img]http://www.reload.ws/blog/CocaPope.jpg[/img]

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vin_Mariani)

See also: http://wings.buffalo.edu/aru/preprohibition.htm

I am of the opinion that most illegal narcotics, if legalized and therefore subject to FDA regulations (testing, purity standards, dosage regulations, etc.), would exist in a form such that they could be abused by those who wished to abuse them (just as is the case with alcohol and over-the-counter medicines) and temperately enjoyed by those who wished to enjoy them. There was a thread awhile back in which it was argued that some drugs are simply to lethal and addictive to be released in any form, but I'm not convinced of that; [b]I am no scientist - [i]and I am not claiming certitude of any sort[/i] - [/b]but it seems to me that if something like morphine can be regulated and prescribed in dosages that won't hurt someone then the same could be done for any drug. The drug would be pure and regulated (unlike now) and the person who wanted it would know what the "safe" dosage was, even if he intended on ignoring the knowledge. I believe many lives would be saved, a great deal of tax money would be made, a great deal of harmless inmates would be freed (and in the process, a lot of tax money would be saved), and the majority of organized crime would be destroyed.

I don't have time to look it up but a few months ago, a country plagued by drug problems decided to legalize everything. Maybe one of you remembers or can track down the article. Anyway, the results very unbelievably positive (and therefore very controversial).

Edited June 15, 2010 by Ziggamafu

[Nihil Obstat]

I don't personally buy the argument that marijuana use is excessive at all levels of consumption. Common sense doesn't seem to bear that out. I can see that argument being more compelling for something like crystal meth or acid.

[goldenchild17]

I certainly disagree that smoking marijuana (and other natural narcotics) is a mortal sin, unless one was doing so with explicit intent to harm one's body. I do believe that purely (occasional, in small quantities) recreational drug use is a venial sin (not mortal, but a sin nonetheless). However I believe that any reasonable medicinal intention makes the use morally acceptable and not a sin in any regard, and I think the reasons can be quite insignificant. I believe that much that applies to alcohol also applies to natural narcotics.

Admittedly my reasons are based on only a small line of a moral theology text, but I don't think they necessarily contradict the text that was linked to in the Q&A thread, though I haven't read the whole thing yet. However I submit that I don't know as much as I should.

Fr. Heribert Jone "Moral Theology" Section 110 -

[quote]"110 c) Since morphine, opium, chloroform and similar drugs can also deprive one of the use of his reason temporarily, that which was said of intoxicating drinks holds also for narcotics (Cf. 165, 4).

a) To use narcotics in small quantities and only occasionally, is a venial sin if done without a sufficient reason. Any proportionately good reason justifies their use, e.g., to calm the nerves, dispel insomnia, etc.

Such use becomes gravely sinful if it creates an habitual craving for "dope" which is more difficult to overcome than dipsomania and more injurious to health.

B) To use drugs in greater quantities so as to lose the use of one's reason is in itself a mortal sin: but for a good reason it is permissible.

Such a good reason is had in case of operations, i.e., that the patient be rendered insensible to intense pain, or that one may remain calm under the knife. In like manner one may administer opiates to one who is suffering greatly in order to alleviate his pain."[/quote]

Edited June 15, 2010 by goldenchild17

[Hassan]

I think pot is overrated

[Ziggamafu]

Regardless of the morality of legal drug use, it is certainly immoral to use drugs that are currently illegal. Not only is the product itself not particularly trustworthy, and not only is the user risking the life-altering repercussions of getting caught, but illegal buying and selling contributes to a grossly - even horrifically - unjust criminal empire that is in turn connected to even more debase forms of crime.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='goldenchild17' date='15 June 2010 - 03:13 PM' timestamp='1276632792' post='2129420']
I certainly disagree that smoking marijuana (and other natural narcotics) is a mortal sin, unless one was doing so with explicit intent to harm one's body. I do believe that purely (occasional, in small quantities) recreational drug use is a venial sin (not mortal, but a sin nonetheless). However I believe that any reasonable medicinal intention makes the use morally acceptable and not a sin in any regard, and I think the reasons can be quite insignificant. I believe that much that applies to alcohol also applies to natural narcotics.

Admittedly my reasons are based on only a small line of a moral theology text, but I don't think they necessarily contradict the text that was linked to in the Q&A thread, though I haven't read the whole thing yet. However I submit that I don't know as much as I should.

Fr. Heribert Jone "Moral Theology" Section 110 -
[/quote]
That sounds like the position I'm starting to lean towards.

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' date='15 June 2010 - 04:18 PM' timestamp='1276633090' post='2129424']
Regardless of the morality of legal drug use, it is certainly immoral to use drugs that are currently illegal. Not only is the product itself not particularly trustworthy, and not only is the user risking the life-altering repercussions of getting caught, but illegal buying and selling contributes to a grossly - even horrifically - unjust criminal empire that is in turn connected to even more debase forms of crime.
[/quote]
...but what if a person grows their own weed, and doesn't sell it, but keeps it for themselves and a few close friends? Is it still immoral and wrong to use? As far as it being "illegal..." our government makes a lot of awful things legal, (ie. abortion)...so I don't understand how smoking weed is immoral, just 'cos the government says it's "against the law..."

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='dominicansoul' date='15 June 2010 - 03:27 PM' timestamp='1276633664' post='2129436']
...but what if a person grows their own weed, and doesn't sell it, but keeps it for themselves and a few close friends? Is it still immoral and wrong to use? As far as it being "illegal..." our government makes a lot of awful things legal, (ie. abortion)...so I don't understand how smoking weed is immoral, just 'cos the government says it's "against the law..."
[/quote]
I agree that the legality argument is extremely weak. That argument for me only has weight from a utilitarian perspective....... i.e. "Don't do drugs because you'll wind up with a criminal record which means significantly stunted career prospects."

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='15 June 2010 - 02:32 PM' timestamp='1276633929' post='2129439']
I agree that the legality argument is extremely weak. That argument for me only has weight from a utilitarian perspective....... i.e. "Don't do drugs because you'll wind up with a criminal record which means significantly stunted career prospects."
[/quote]

I don't believe it should be illegal and I think people who agree should do something to work towards making it legal. However, I think the Church tells us that we should submit to any laws set down for us that are not immoral (someone correct me if I'm wrong.) Whether we agree with the prohibition or not, I don't see it as an immoral law, so I don't think we have any grounds for disobeying it. However, yes I agree that the arguments against its legality are very weak.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='goldenchild17' date='15 June 2010 - 03:38 PM' timestamp='1276634297' post='2129448']
I don't believe it should be illegal and I think people who agree should do something to work towards making it legal. However, I think the Church tells us that we should submit to any laws set down for us that are not immoral (someone correct me if I'm wrong.) Whether we agree with the prohibition or not, I don't see it as an immoral law, so I don't think we have any grounds for disobeying it. However, yes I agree that the arguments against its legality are very weak.
[/quote]
I guess that depends on what your view is of the place of government in society. If you lean more towards Sternhauser's ideas, then you'd definitely see it as an immoral law. Or some people might be inclined to see it as neutral (therefore to be followed while it is law) rather than strictly negative.

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

Speaking from the point of view of someone who knows nothing about what the Magisterium says about this subject (other than what has been posted earlier), my common sense would say "It depends."

In some states marijuana use is not illegal if used for medical reasons. Apparently, marijuana can be very helpful for those who have glaucoma or for those with very bad nausea, to name two examples.

I spent my college years in an atmosphere where marijuana use was generally accepted--and more common than either smoking tobacco or drinking alcohol. And, as I've posted before, I'd rather be around someone who is stoned, than someone who is drunk, because generally the worst thing about a stoned person is that they are usually extremely boring, while drunk people often throw up and/or get violent, two things I try to avoid, if possible.

Of course, it goes without saying that a person who uses marijuana (just like someone who is drinking alcohol) should not get behind the wheel of a car.

I'm pretty sure that studies HAVE shown that excessive use of marijuana in relatively high does on an daily basis, will, over time, have negative effects on the brain. (But, the same could be said for alcohol.) I personally know of at least two people (one a close relative) who did this and lost 20-30 IQ points and much of their ambition. But, both of them smoked marijuana daily for at least 10-20 years, and not simply a puff or two. And, both were highly intelligent to begin with, so even after losing 20-30 IQ points, they still much smarter (at least in terms of IQ) than the typical person.

The people I knew in college who smoked marijuana "socially," that is, mostly on weekends with friends, and in fairly low doses, have, in the long term, shown no ill effects from it that I have seen. I don't have any scientific data on this, but, based only on my experience, marijuana appears to be far less addictive than nicotine.

So, all that said, if it weren't for the fact that marijuana is illegal in most states, I'd say it was no worse than drinking, and much less worse than smoking tobacco. (Sorry, but I'm a rabid nonsmoker who would ban tobacco entirely if I had my way. But, since it's legal, I try to put up with it in the most polite way possible.)

In the case of either marijuana or alcohol, a person who got behind the wheel of a car, particularly one with other passengers, would be engaging in highly irresponsible behavior, and I suspect would be considered to be committing the sin of purposefully putting the lives of others (and themselves) in danger. Not to mention that to do so is illegal.

For myself, I didn't smoke marijuana (or cigarettes) in college, because I couldn't (and still can't) stand the thought of putting smoke in my lungs. And, it appears that my body doesn't have the enzyme that converts alcohol to sugar, so even a small dose of alcohol makes me sick. As a result, I've never even been tempted to drink and have never developed a taste for alcohol. But, I don't care if others drink (as long as they don't throw up on me), and I'm a convenient friend to have, because it means there is always a designated driver who doesn't feel deprived by not drinking.

So, let's face it. I'm a saint. [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/saint.gif[/img] Yeah, right.