Question About Vocations

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

The word "vocation" is used in many ways--and all of them may be right.

For example, say a person was in religious life, but left to get married. Does that mean that they really did not have had a vocation for the religious life? Or did he/she have a vocation for religious life, but over time, have different vocation? And, can you have two vocations at once?

I think I know the answer to my own question, and that is, "Yes." We certainly have stories of women who have been married, and then later in their life joined religious orders. But, I wonder if that means that they really had a religious vocation all their life, but put it off for marriage. Or does going through the sacrament of marriage automatically mean that your vocation is marriage, and the religious vocation came later? (I've certainly met people who married in the church who did not seem like they had a vocation for marriage.)

Even though I don't know exactly how vocations work, I know how I FEEL. When I went through the sacrament of marriage, whatever my ex was feeling/thinking, "I" was taking a vow that my vocation was marriage. And, even though I've been single for a long time now, I don't feel that it is my vocation--it's simply the state I am in now. I don't think I could take a vow to promise to be single (and celibate) for the rest of my life. If the right man came along, I would want to be free to get married. The way things are going, I probably WILL be single for the rest of my life, but I feel as if I'm trying to make the best of it, although it is not my "vocation." Does that make sense? Or, does the fact that I am single, and have been for awhile, mean that being single is my vocation by default.

I've always been fascinated by the religious life. And, in my life now, I find the thought of community, and having people who truly cared and felt a responsibility for me (and I for them) is very attractive. And, yet, I know from long experience that there have been a number of things I've truly wanted in my life, but from a practical perspective, they just were not possible. For example, I would have loved to be a solo singer, but my voice just isn't good enough. It's good enough for choral singing, which helps. But, from a practical perspective, that wish just isn't going to happen. (Although, certainly, in today's pop music scene, being able to sing doesn't seem to matter--but I'm also no longer 16. LOL.

So, even though I continue to be fascinated by the religious life, I know myself well enough to know that I don't have the right temperament (or, at the moment, health) to be either a religious Sister or a nun (whether Catholic or Anglican).

Just rambling......

[Hilde]

You have one vocation, it doesn't change.

Don't enter religious life just because you think you think it's probable you'll be single for the rest of your life. I think it would be difficult to live that life without having the vocation. But I haven't tried. But you might have been called to religious life all along even though you got married. You might simply have gone against your vocation. I don't know what you mean when you say a "vow that your vocation is marriage" because a vocation comes from God.

Maybe there are other options for you.

Sorry for being so blunt in my post, I don't know what's up with me today.

ETA: Two vocations at once? Of singlehood(is that a word?), religious life, marriage and priesthood I know there is one instance where that might be. For religious priests. The others aren't compatible as far as I can see.

Edited June 12, 2010 by Hilde

[TeresaBenedicta]

Well, I think the answer is kind of "yes" and "no".

"Vocation" comes from the Latin [i]'vocare'[/i] which means "to call". It's generally said that we have three vocations:

1) The call to being or to existence. God calls each and every one of us, individually, into existence.
2) The universal call to holiness, which is given at baptism.
3) The call to a state of life.

So, in a general sense, yes-- we all have multiple vocations, or multiple calls.

But when speaking of the call to a state of life, in which vows are taken, I don't think that a person has multiple vocations. Well, in a sense. Let me explain.

Let's take a woman who was called to marriage. She vowed herself to her husband [i]until death[/i]. At death, those vows are fulfilled. This woman could then be called again to marriage, or she could be called to enter religious life. In a sense this would seem to be "multiple vocations" or that God called her to marriage for a time and then to consecrated life. But I don't like that wording. That woman was called to marriage to a particular person. (Remember, the call to marriage is not something abstract-- it is a call to marry a particular person). At the death of her spouse, that call can no longer exist and thus God can and does give a second call, so to say.

On the other hand, if a woman discerned a call to the religious life and made perpetual vows, then she would not have a "second" vocation. If she were to leave and get married, that would not be a call from God, but the breaking of her vows. God does not call a person to the religious life "for a period time" (not to be confused with being [i]in[/i] religious life for a time... God could call someone into religious life and call them out of religious life [i]before[/i] they make final or perpetual vows... that's definitely happened before). To say that would be to completely miss the essence of religious life. Father Thomas Dubay has an excellent commentary on this in his book [i]And You Are Christ's[/i]. I'll try to find and post the passage of which I'm thinking.

So, when thinking about vocations in the sense of state of life, I think it's helpful to really consider the vows taken by the person entering that particular state of life. With marriage, the call is to a particular person and it is until death. Therefore it is quite conceivable that God would call that person again, to a different state of life or again to marriage. With the religious vocation, on the other hand, the vows are perpetual. Once made, God does not call one to a different state of life.

[TeresaBenedicta]

And as Hilde pointed out, it is possible to choose against the state in life to which God is calling you. That's part of the beauty of vocations... they are a call, and we are free to respond positively or negatively. But once you enter into a state of life and make vows, that's your "vocation" in a sense. You are bound to adhere to those vows so long as they were made freely.

So, yes, a person could have been called to religious life, but chose to get married. She may eventually even feel it and know it deep down in her heart... but she is bound to fulfill the vows she made to her husband. She made her choice.

[Hilde]

[quote name='TeresaBenedicta' date='12 June 2010 - 03:34 AM' timestamp='1276302847' post='2127558']
And as Hilde pointed out, it is possible to choose against the state in life to which God is calling you. That's part of the beauty of vocations... they are a call, and we are free to respond positively or negatively. But once you enter into a state of life and make vows, that's your "vocation" in a sense. You are bound to adhere to those vows so long as they were made freely.

So, yes, a person could have been called to religious life, but chose to get married. She may eventually even feel it and know it deep down in her heart... but she is bound to fulfill the vows she made to her husband. She made her choice.
[/quote]
I've been thinking that in my case, the " I think religious life will be too hard so I'll get married instead" wouldn't work for me because going against my vocation would be frustrating if I'd often think about what should have, could have, would have been. With that said I'm not 100% sure what my vocation is. Just a thought.(and this is me, personally)

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

[quote name='Hilde' date='11 June 2010 - 07:21 PM' timestamp='1276302081' post='2127556']
You have one vocation, it doesn't change.

Don't enter religious life just because you think you think it's probable you'll be single for the rest of your life. I think it would be difficult to live that life without having the vocation. But I haven't tried. But you might have been called to religious life all along even though you got married. You might simply have gone against your vocation. I don't know what you mean when you say a "vow that your vocation is marriage" because a vocation comes from God.

Maybe there are other options for you.

Sorry for being so blunt in my post.
[/quote]

Thanks for the post--you gave me things to think about.

I wasn't clear when I said I felt my vocation was marriage. I felt God was calling me to the vocation of marriage. When I said I "made a vow" that my vocation was marriage, what I was referring to was that my ex and I wrote own our wedding vows (it was the "thing to do" at the time) and I said in my vows that my vocation was marriage.

I'm not seriously considering entering religious life. For one (very important) reason, my health would prevent it at this point--I'm pretty useless at the moment. But, you're right that there may be other options. Right now, I don't know what God wants, or what is going to happen with my health, so I'm just waiting (and waiting and waiting).

Strangely, for some reason that I don't understand, I believe it's all going to work out. But, at this point, I have NO idea how or when--I'm just trying to stay open to different ideas, and not close any doors. It's very strange for me--I'm someone who has always wanted to know what is going to happen next IMMEDIATELY. I read the end of mystery novels before I start them. As a child, my parents had to hide all my presents until after I went to bed on Christmas Eve because, otherwise, I'd unwrap my presents to see what they were, and then very neatly wrap them again. Because I've been forced to be, I've become more patient in the past few months and years than I ever expected I could be. (I think I'm just too tired to be TOO impatient.)

I HATE surprises--even good ones. Anyone who knows me knows never to throw me a surprise party, for example, because I won't enjoy it. Better to tip me off ahead of time, and then I will gladly pretend to be surprised. Part of this is that, in the past few years, there haven't been many good surprises, and some really awful bad surprises.

But, on the other hand, I LOVE anticipation. Sometimes I enjoy the anticipation more than the actual event itself! For example, when I was able to, I used to take a lot of cruises, and a lot of the fun was in the planning. I enjoyed the cruise itself (obviously, or I wouldn't have taken so many of them), but I was always more happy when I had something fun to anticipate. I don't have that now, unfortunately--just the unknown.

I don't know if this makes any sense. A lot of the time, my life makes no sense to me. I just try to do the best I can at any given moment.

And, you weren't too blunt at all in your post. No reason to apologize.

[TeresaBenedicta]

Here is a passage from Fr. Dubay's [i]...And You Are Christ's[/i]:

[quote]To choose to be in one place excludes being in another at the same time. To spend a sum of money in one way implies that that money cannot be spent in other ways.

The young woman (or man) with the celibate charism possesses a love-gift from God that so orients her person to him that she "cannot" give herself to another in a marital manner. This "cannot" is a special cannot. The young woman could reject the charism and marry, but she cannot reject it without doing some violence to her being. God has captured her as only he can capture. If she rejects his divine desire to possess her in an exclusive manner (God forces himself on no one), she hurts herself in that she turns her back on something that has been done to her. She refuses an interpersonal gift.

A religious has well expressed this crucial "cannot". "It hit me suddenly", she wrote, 'that if my experience of God's life could make marriage almost an impossibility (because it would entail turning myself from one center to another- as though a woman would or could marry two men and give them equal rights- it just can't be done), then it would not be quite accurate to say, as some do, that Christ chose celibacy [merely] in order to give a sign of dedication... if one is being real, then it becomes natural to live celibately, since one's experience of God impels it and one would have to do some kind of violence in living otherwise.'[/quote]

I think it's crucial to understand the charism and vow of celibacy when looking at this question. It is a self-gift to God that excludes a self-gift, in that particular way, to another [i]person[/i], as in marriage.

[laetitia crucis]

Personally, I think this is a rather difficult question to answer. I guess it all depends on the perspective, though...

I've known two separate priests (one a religious order priest, another diocesan) that were married, had several children, and then were widowed after multiple decades of marriage. After they were widowed (and their children were self-sufficient to care for themselves) they had discerned their vocation to the priesthood.

Both of these priests are good and holy priests, at least in my humble opinion.

I've also known a few religious Sisters that had similar experiences in marriage (some are even grandmothers now) -- some were either separated (OR with annulled marriages) OR they were widowed, and then discerned religious life afterwards.

I remember one of the Sisters asking a few priests (on different occasions) in my former community about people having a "temporary vocation" and they seemed to think this is real thing. (Hmmm.. I hope that last statement made sense -- I don't know how else to say it.)

However, I also wish to second what TeresaBenedicta said about perpetual vows with a community. If I remember correctly, canon law states that a religious may have up to nine years in temporary vows before professing Perpetual Vows -- if he/she is still uncertain, they are to be dismissed from the community/order. I would think surely nine years would be enough time to discern one's vocation to that way of life (or community). When perpetual vows are taken, leaving is much more difficult:

[quote]Can. 691 §1. A perpetually professed religious is not to request an indult of departure from an institute except for the gravest of causes considered before the Lord. The religious is to present a petition to the supreme moderator of the institute who is to transmit it along with a personal opinion and the opinion of the council to the competent authority.

§2. In institutes of pontifical right, an indult of this type is reserved to the Apostolic See. In institutes of diocesan right, however, the bishop of the diocese in which the house of assignment is situated can also grant it.[/quote]

Hmmmm... I hope this helps clarify things a little bit at least. I think TB did a really good job answering this question!

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

[quote name='Hilde' date='11 June 2010 - 07:40 PM' timestamp='1276303251' post='2127562']
I've been thinking that in my case, the " I think religious life will be too hard so I'll get married instead" wouldn't work for me because going against my vocation would be frustrating if I'd often think about what should have, could have, would have been. With that said I'm not 100% sure what my vocation is. Just a thought.(and this is me, personally)
[/quote]

Also, athough I know religious life can be very hard, married life is hard, too. Married life certainly has its consolations--but I expect religious life does, too. And, I can imagine very few lifestyles harder than raising children. I have seen my sister lead a life that is at least as regimented and difficult as religious life (she's up at 5:00 am every morning, and has been for 20 years, so that she can get to work early, so she can be there when the kids come home from school). Her children have been her #1 priority--and it shows. Her kids are great--they are very self-confident because they KNOW they are loved, and that their parents would die for them, if necessary. My sister realized, even before having children, that she would be very unhappy if she were a "stay-at-home mom for long periods of time. So instead, she chose a job with flexible work hours and the ability to take long leaves of absence when her children were born. Her husband (my BIL) likewise has a job that gives him flexibility in work hours and the ability to work at home.

But, even without children (I did not have children) married life is still hard work. That's not to say that religious life is not equally hard, or harder, but there must be something very healthy about religious life, because Sisters/nuns often seem to live longer than married people.

However, there are different kinds of "hard." For me, the kinds of "hard" associated with religious life go against my basic temperament (not to mention my sleep disorder which would prevent me from waking up early in the morning--much less in the middle of the night). The difficulties of being married were something I could handle better than the difficulties of religious life.

Strangely, despite the many things I feel am I missing, for me at least, being single is easier than being married (and, I assume, easier than the religious life).

I'm constantly surprised at how different people are from one another. Far from being "all the same," what is a joy to one person is a burden to another.

Edited June 12, 2010 by IgnatiusofLoyola

[laetitia crucis]

[quote name='TeresaBenedicta' date='11 June 2010 - 08:49 PM' timestamp='1276303770' post='2127566']
Here is a passage from Fr. Dubay's [i]...And You Are Christ's[/i]:

[quote]To choose to be in one place excludes being in another at the same time. To spend a sum of money in one way implies that that money cannot be spent in other ways.

The young woman (or man) with the celibate charism possesses a love-gift from God that so orients her person to him that she "cannot" give herself to another in a marital manner. This "cannot" is a special cannot. The young woman could reject the charism and marry, but she cannot reject it without doing some violence to her being. God has captured her as only he can capture. If she rejects his divine desire to possess her in an exclusive manner (God forces himself on no one), she hurts herself in that she turns her back on something that has been done to her. She refuses an interpersonal gift.

A religious has well expressed this crucial "cannot". "It hit me suddenly", she wrote, 'that if my experience of God's life could make marriage almost an impossibility (because it would entail turning myself from one center to another- as though a woman would or could marry two men and give them equal rights- it just can't be done), then it would not be quite accurate to say, as some do, that Christ chose celibacy [merely] in order to give a sign of dedication... if one is being real, then it becomes natural to live celibately, since one's experience of God impels it and one would have to do some kind of violence in living otherwise.'[/quote]

I think it's crucial to understand the charism and vow of celibacy when looking at this question. It is a self-gift to God that excludes a self-gift, in that particular way, to another [i]person[/i], as in marriage.
[/quote]

Oooh! +1!!!

Excellent, excellent point!

Thank you for posting that, TB!

[TeresaBenedicta]

[quote name='laetitia crucis' date='11 June 2010 - 09:55 PM' timestamp='1276304132' post='2127567']
Personally, I think this is a rather difficult question to answer. I guess it all depends on the perspective, though...

I've known two separate priests (one a religious order priest, another diocesan) that were married, had several children, and then were widowed after multiple decades of marriage. After they were widowed (and their children were self-sufficient to care for themselves) they had discerned their vocation to the priesthood.

Both of these priests are good and holy priests, at least in my humble opinion.

I've also known a few religious Sisters that had similar experiences in marriage (some are even grandmothers now) -- some were either separated (OR with annulled marriages) OR they were widowed, and then discerned religious life afterwards.

I remember one of the Sisters asking a few priests (on different occasions) in my former community about people having a [b]"temporary vocation"[/b] and they seemed to think this is real thing. (Hmmm.. I hope that last statement made sense -- I don't know how else to say it.)

[/quote]



I suppose I just don't care for the term "temporary vocation". I think sometimes it can give the wrong impression, ya know? But I suppose, technically, marriage [i]could[/i] be considered a "temporary vocation" in that sense, precisely because [i]it ends at death[/i]. Again, using that kind of language can be confusing, though.

And with priests, I think it's a whole different issue-- since celibacy is a [b]discipline[/b], therefore it's merely a promise, not a vow. For now, it's basically the same case as we've been discussing. But technically, in its essence, the priesthood does not necessarily exclude marriage.

[Hilde]

[quote name='IgnatiusofLoyola' date='12 June 2010 - 03:58 AM' timestamp='1276304296' post='2127568']
Also, athough I know religious life can be very hard, married life is hard, too. Married life certainly has its consolations--but I expect religious life does, too. And, I can imagine very few lifestyles harder than raising children. I have seen my sister lead a life that is at least as regimented and difficult as religious life (she's up at 5:00 am every morning, and has been for 20 years, so that she can get to work early, so she can be there when the kids come home from school). Her children have been her #1 priority--and it shows. Her kids are great--they are very self-confident because they KNOW they are loved, and that their parents would die for them, if necessary. My sister realized, even before having children, that she would be very unhappy if she were a "stay-at-home mom for long periods of time. So instead, she chose a job with flexible work hours and the ability to take long leaves of absence when her children were born. Her husband (my BIL) likewise has a job that gives him flexibility in work hours and the ability to work at home.

But, even without children (I did not have children) married life is still hard work. That's not to say that religious life is not equally hard, or harder, but there must be something very healthy about religious life, because Sisters/nuns often seem to live longer than married people.

However, there are different kinds of "hard." For me, the kinds of "hard" associated with religious life go against my basic temperament (not to mention my sleep disorder which would prevent me from waking up early in the morning--much less in the middle of the night). The difficulties of being married were something I could handle better than the difficulties of religious life.

Strangely, despite the many things I feel am I missing, for me at least, being single is easier than being married (and, I assume, easier than the religious life).

I'm constantly surprised at how different people are from one another. Far from being "all the same," what is a joy to one person is a burden to another.
[/quote]It's my impression that married life is easier, but I'm surely not saying it's a cakewalk.

Is there medication you can take to manipulate your sleeping pattern? Mine is messed up, but I'm not on any medication of that sort.

And I think that in the close relationship the religious may experience with God, they may just radiate a little like the angels.

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

[quote name='TeresaBenedicta' date='11 June 2010 - 07:49 PM' timestamp='1276303770' post='2127566']
Here is a passage from Fr. Dubay's [i]...And You Are Christ's[/i]:

I think it's crucial to understand the charism and vow of celibacy when looking at this question. It is a self-gift to God that excludes a self-gift, in that particular way, to another [i]person[/i], as in marriage.
[/quote]

Thanks so much for that quote. I never understood the celibacy vow of the religious life very well, but that quote makes it much clearer to me.

It also makes it clearer to me, why, although I am fascinated by the religious life, I am not called to it. I have never had that intimate relationship with God or the call from God described in the quote. I have heard other people describe it, but when they do, I realize it is not something I have ever experienced. I've gotten used to being celibate, so that celibacy is not really a problem or an issue for me, but it doesn't feel natural or something I'm called to. It's simply the way it is right now, and may be forever--but I cannot bring myself to close that door completely, however unlikely the possibility of a second marriage.

I also found very interesting the idea that the marriage vow (and vocation) entails a vow to a particular man. When I dream at night, my ex is at least present in practically all my dreams. Early on, we'd still be married in my dreams. In the past few years, we definitely aren't married, yet we have a relationship. My marriage has never been annulled, and I've wondered if that would help. But, the annullment process involves a great deal of emotional strength that I need for other things right now. Also, even if the Church declared that the marriage never took place, as far as my part of the vows are concerned, that would feel like a lie (even if it is the truth). Even if my ex never was truly married, I was. And, some friends have suggested that I try to rekindle a friendship with my ex, but he is not interested in having anything to do with me.

Lots of things to think about.

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

[quote name='Hilde' date='11 June 2010 - 08:23 PM' timestamp='1276305814' post='2127578']
It's my impression that married life is easier, but I'm surely not saying it's a cakewalk.

Is there medication you can take to manipulate your sleeping pattern? Mine is messed up, but I'm not on any medication of that sort.

And I think that in the close relationship the religious may experience with God, they may just radiate a little like the angels. [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/saint.gif[/img]
[/quote]

Having never been in religious life, I can't say which life is easier. But, marriage was harder than I expected it to be.

As for my sleep disorder, it was diagnosed through a sleep test (the kind where they attach electrodes to your head and then expect you to sleep). Unfortunately, it is one that has no cure, but through a combination of "good sleep hygiene" (I love that term. LOL), and controlling which medications I can take and which I can't, it is under as much control as modern medicine allows. At some point this year, I will probably undergo another sleep test, but as you can imagine, it's not something that's particularly fun or that I'm excited to repeat. So, getting up at 5:30 on a regular basis, or getting less than 9-10 hours of sleep a night, is never going to be in the program for me. (Actually, I've been that way all my life. Even as a child, if I had to get up very early in the morning, even if I had gotten 8 hours or more of sleep, I would literally be sick, not just drowsy. It's a good thing my parents weren't farmers!)

[CatherineM]

I don't think that my vocation changed, but I do feel like it evolved in a way.