Boettner's "popular" List Of Lies

[ironmonk]

The matter of Faith and Morals have never changed in the Catholic Church. Boettner makes accusations and then gives no easy way for someone to verify what he claims. There are no footnotes, like writers are taught to make. No references. Why no references? Because he didn't want anyone to find out that he was a liar.

Christ instructed the Church to preach everything he taught (Matt. 28:19–20) and promised the protection of the Holy Spirit to "guide you into all the truth" (John 16:13). That mandate and that promise guarantee the Church will never fall away from his teachings (Matt. 16:18, 1 Tim. 3:15), even if individual Catholics might.

As Christians began to more clearly understand the teaching authority of the Church and of the primacy of the pope, they developed a clearer understanding of the pope’s infallibility. This development of the faithful’s understanding has its clear beginnings in the early Church. For example, Cyprian of Carthage, writing about 256, put the question this way, "Would the heretics dare to come to the very seat of Peter whence apostolic faith is derived and whither no errors can come?" (Letters 59 [55], 14). In the fifth century, Augustine succinctly captured the ancient attitude when he remarked, "Rome has spoken; the case is concluded" (Sermons 131, 10).



[b]1. Presbyter (or elders) were first called priests by Lucian...2nd century.[/b]
CORRECTION: Priests (presbuteroi) are also known as "presbyters" or "elders." In fact, the English term "priest" is simply a contraction of the Greek word presbuteros. They have the responsibility of teaching, governing, and providing the sacraments in a given congregation (1 Tim. 5:17; Jas. 5:14–15).

[b]2. Prayers for the dead...A.D. 300.[/b]
CORRECTION: Prayers for the dead started hundreds of years before Christ with the Jews. [url="http://www.jewfaq.org/death.htm#kaddish"]http://www.jewfaq.org/death.htm#kaddish[/url] also see Rosh Hashanna
Also see: 2 Macc. 12:43-46



[b]3. The VENERATION of angels and dead saints and the use of images...375.[/b]
CORRECTION:
Veneration: Matt. 18:10, Luke 1:28, 1 Cor. 4:16-17, 1 Cor. 11:1-2, 2 Thess. 3:7, 1 Peter 2:17, Gen. 19:1, Gen. 42:6, Exodus 28:2, Lev. 19:32, 1 Sam. 28:14
Statues: Exodus 25:18-22; 26:1,31, Num. 21:8-9, I Kings 6:23-36; 7:27-39; 8:6-67, 1 Chron. 28:18-19, 2 Chron. 3:7-14, Ezek. 41:15

[b]4. The Mass as a daily celebration was adopted...394.[/b]
CORRECTION: What is wrong with worshiping God everyday?! This cannot be a negative.
Matt. 6:11; Luke 11:3 --- "Daily bread"
Malachi 1:11 For from the rising of the sun, even to its setting, my name is great among the nations; And everywhere they bring sacrifice to my name, and a pure offering; For great is my name among the nations, says the LORD of hosts.

St. Augustine
TO HIS BELOVED SON JANUARIUS, AUGUSTIN SENDS GREETING IN THE LORD. (400 AD)
CHAP. II. -- 2. There are other things, however, which are different in different places and countries: e.g., some fast on Saturday, others do not; some partake daily of the body and blood of Christ, others receive it on stated days: in some places no day passes without the sacrifice being offered; in others it is only on Saturday and the Lord's day, or it may be only on the Lord's day. In regard to these and all other variable observances which may be met anywhere, one is at liberty to comply with them or not as he chooses; and there is no better rule for the wise and serious Christian in this matter, than to conform to the practice which he finds prevailing in the Church to which it may be his lot to come. For such a custom, if it is clearly not contrary to the faith nor to sound morality, is to be held as a thing indifferent, and ought to be observed for the sake of fellowship with those among whom we live.

[b]5. The beginning of the exaltation of Mary, and the first use of the term "Mother of God" by the Council of Ephesus...431.[/b]
CORRECTION:
Irenaeus
"The Virgin Mary, being obedient to his word, received from an angel the glad tidings that she would bear God" (Against Heresies, 5:19:1 [A.D. 189]).

Hippolytus
"[T]o all generations they [the prophets] have pictured forth the grandest subjects for contemplation and for action. Thus, too, they preached of the advent of God in the flesh to the world, his advent by the spotless and God-bearing (theotokos) Mary in the way of birth and growth, and the manner of his life and conversation with men, and his manifestation by baptism, and the new birth that was to be to all men, and the regeneration by the laver [of baptism]" (Discourse on the End of the World 1 [A.D. 217]).

[b]6. Priests began to dress different from the laity and to wear special clothes...500.[/b]
CORRECTION:
What does this have to do with anything?
Rev. 1:13, 4:4, 6:11, 7:9, 15:6, 19:13-14 - priests wear special vestments in heaven. Our priests also wear special vestments in celebrating the Holy Mass on earth.


[b]7. Extreme Unction ...526.[/b]
CORRECTION:
St James 5:14
Is anyone among you sick? He should summon the presbyters of the church, and they should pray over him and anoint (him) with oil in the name of the Lord,
15 and the prayer of faith will save the sick person, and the Lord will raise him up. If he has committed any sins, he will be forgiven.

[b]8. The doctrine of purgatory was first established by Gregory the
Great...593.[/b]
CORRECTION:
Isaiah 6:6-7 1 Peter 3:19 Matt. 12:32 Luke 12:59 2 Macc. 12:43-46 Rev 20:13-15
Rev. 21:27 1 Cor 3:15
Purgatory was taught by the Jews hundreds of years before Christ. [url="http://www.jewfaq.org/death.htm#kaddish"]http://www.jewfaq.org/death.htm#kaddish[/url]

[b]9. Prayers began to be offered to Mary, dead saints, and angels...600.[/b]
CORRECTION:
Hermas
"[The Shepherd said:] ‘But those who are weak and slothful in prayer, hesitate to ask anything from the Lord; but the Lord is full of compassion, and gives without fail to all who ask him. But you, [Hermas,] having been strengthened by the holy angel [you saw], and having obtained from him such intercession, and not being slothful, why do not you ask of the Lord understanding, and receive it from him?’" (The Shepherd 3:5:4 [A.D. 80]).

Clement of Alexandria
"In this way is he [the true Christian] always pure for prayer. He also prays in the society of angels, as being already of angelic rank, and he is never out of their holy keeping; and though he pray alone, he has the choir of the saints standing with him [in prayer]" (Miscellanies 7:12 [A.D. 208]).

Origen
"But not the high priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels . . . as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep" (Prayer 11 [A.D. 233]).

[b]10. The first man was proclaimed "Pope" (Boniface III)...610.[/b]
CORRECTION:
1 Corin. 4:15 Even if you should have countless guides to Christ, yet you do not have many fathers, for I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel.
Pope is Latin for Father.
Encyclopædia Britannica: Latin papa, from Greek pappas, “father”. an ecclesiastical title expressing affectionate respect, formerly given, especially from the 3rd to the 5th century, to any bishop and sometimes to simple priests. The title is still used in the East for the Orthodox patriarch of Alexandria and for Orthodox priests, but, since about the 9th century, it has been reserved in the West exclusively for the bishop of Rome.
The term pope was originally applied to all the bishops in the West and also used to describe the patriarch of Alexandria, who still retains the title. In 1073, however, Gregory VII restricted its use to the bishop of Rome.

[b]11. Veneration of the cross, images, and relics authorized...788.[/b]
CORRECTION: See correction to point 3. He already had images listed as 375... Boettner proves with his own list that he is unreliable.

[b]12. Holy water, mixed with a pinch of salt and blessed by a priest was authorized in...850.[/b]
CORRECTION: In the early Christian community the “living” water of rivers and streams was preferred for Baptism and apparently received no special blessing. By the time of the 4th century the still waters of the baptismal font or pool were exorcised and blessed with the sign of the cross.

[b]13. Veneration of Saint Joseph...890.[/b]
CORRECTION:during the first centuries of the Church's existence, it was only the martyrs who enjoyed veneration. The earliest traces of public recognition of the sanctity of St. Joseph are to be found in the East. His feast, if we may trust the assertions of Papebroch, was kept by the Copts as early as the beginning of the fourth century. .

Britannica: Although the veneration of Joseph seems to have begun in Egypt, the earliest Western devotion to him dates from the early 14th century, when the Servites, an order of mendicant friars, observed his feast on March 19, the traditional day of his death.

[b]14. College of cardinals begun...927.[/b]
CORRECTION: This has nothing to do with anything, as an organization grows, it needs greater hierarchy.

[b]15. Canonization of dead saints, first by Pope John XV...995.[/b]
CORRECTION: The true origin of canonization and beatification must be sought in the Catholic doctrine of the worship (cultus), invocation, and intercession of the saints. As was taught by St. Augustine (~400 AD) (Quaest. in Heptateuch., lib. II, n. 94; Contra Faustum, lib. XX, xxi), Catholics, while giving to God alone adoration strictly so-called, honour the saints because of the Divine supernatural gifts which have earned them eternal life, and through which they reign with God in the heavenly fatherland as His chosen friends and faithful servants. In other words, Catholics honour God in His saints as the loving distributor of supernatural gifts. The worship of latria (latreia), or strict adoration, is given to God alone; the worship of dulia (douleia), or honour and humble reverence, is paid the saints; the worship of hyperdulia (hyperdouleia), a higher form of dulia, belongs, on account of her greater excellence, to the Blessed Virgin Mary. The Church (Aug., Contra Faustum, XX, xxi, 21; cf. De Civit. Dei, XXII, x) erects her altars to God alone, though in honour and memory of the saints and martyrs. There is Scriptural warrant for such worship in the passages where we are bidden to venerate angels (Ex., xxiii, 20 sqq.; Jos., v, 13 sqq.; Dan., viii, 15 sqq.; x, 4 sqq.; Luke, ii, 9 sqq.; Acts, xii, 7 sqq.; Apoc., v, 11 sqq.; vii, 1 sqq.; Matt., xviii, 10; etc.), whom holy men are not unlike, as sharers of the friendship of God. And if St. Paul beseeches the brethren (Rom., xv, 30; II Cor., i, 11; Col., iv, 3; Ephes., vi, 18, 19) to help him by their prayers for him to God, we must with even greater reason maintain that we can be helped by the prayers of the saints, and ask their intercession with humility. If we may beseech those who still live on earth, why not those who live in heaven?


[b]16. The Mass developed gradually as a sacrifice, attendance was made obligatory in...11th century.[/b]
CORRECTION:
The Mass has always been obligatory and always a sacrifice.
The Didache
"Assemble on the Lord’s day, and break bread and offer the Eucharist; but first make confession of your faults, so that your sacrifice may be a pure one. Anyone who has a difference with his fellow is not to take part with you until he has been reconciled, so as to avoid any profanation of your sacrifice [Matt. 5:23–24]. For this is the offering of which the Lord has said, ‘Everywhere and always bring me a sacrifice that is undefiled, for I am a great king, says the Lord, and my name is the wonder of nations’ [Mal. 1:11, 14]" (Didache 14 [A.D. 70]).

Pope Clement I
"Our sin will not be small if we eject from the episcopate those who blamelessly and holily have offered its sacrifices. Blessed are those presbyters who have already finished their course, and who have obtained a fruitful and perfect release" (Letter to the Corinthians 44:4–5 [A.D. 80]).

Ignatius of Antioch
"Make certain, therefore, that you all observe one common Eucharist; for there is but one Body of our Lord Jesus Christ, and but one cup of union with his Blood, and one single altar of sacrifice—even as there is also but one bishop, with his clergy and my own fellow servitors, the deacons. This will ensure that all your doings are in full accord with the will of God" (Letter to the Philadelphians 4 [A.D. 110]).

[b]17. The celibacy of the priesthood was decreed by Pope Hildebrand, Boniface VII...1079.[/b]
CORRECTION:
This is a practice (discipline) not Dogma. Matt. 19:11-12, Matt. 19:29, Matt. 22:30, 1 Cor 7:7, 1 Cor. 7:32-33, 38, 1 Tim. 3:2, 1 Tim. 4:3, 1 Tim. 5:9-12, 2 Tim. 2:3-4, Rev. 14:4, Isaiah 56:3-7, Jer. 16:1-4

[b]18. The rosary, or prayer beads copied from Hindus and Mohammadans) was introduced by Peter the Hermit...1090.[/b]
CORRECTION:
No, not copied from Hindus.
See [url="http://www.cin.org/histros.html"]http://www.cin.org/histros.html[/url]
It is a way to pray to Christ, what does it matter that we count our prayers?

[b]19. The Inquisition (2) of "Heretics" was instituted by the Council of Verona...1184, and was legalized and promoted by the Fourth Lateran Council in 1215.[/b]
CORRECTION:
There was no "Council of Verona". In 1184 Verona was rulled by muslims, no Catholic Council would have been within 100 miles of Verona. Boettner makes a bold faced lie.

[b]20. The sale of Indulgences...1190.[/b]
CORRECTION:
An indulgence does not mean that people are allowed to indulge. A indulgence is basically a way to measure good. Isn't it better to give 20% of our pay instead of 5% of our pay to the needs of the Temple? Giving 20% would have more indulgences than giving 5%.

See [url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Primer_on_Indulgences.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/library/Primer_on_Indulgences.asp[/url]
And [url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Myths_About_Indulgences.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/library/Myths_About_Indulgences.asp[/url]

[b]21. The seven sacraments defined by Peter Lombard...12th century.[/b]
CORRECTION: see [url="http://www.catholic.com/library/sacraments.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/library/sacraments.asp[/url]

[b]22. The dogma of transubstantiation was decreed by Pope Innocent III ...1215.[/b]
CORRECTION: The name was only given to what has always been taught.
Ignatius of Antioch
"I have no taste for corruptible food nor for the pleasures of this life. I desire the bread of God, which is the flesh of Jesus Christ, who was of the seed of David; and for drink I desire his blood, which is love incorruptible" (Letter to the Romans 7:3 [A.D. 110]).

[b]23. Confession of sins to the priest at least once a year was instituted by Pope Innocent III in the Lateran Council...1215[/b].
CORRECTION: St John 20:21-23, St James 5:16, Acts 19:18, Acts 19:18

[b]24. The adoration of the wafer (host) decreed by Pope Honorius III ...1220.[/b]
CORRECTION: It's not a wafer. It IS Jesus. St John 6, 1 Corin. 11:23-29

[b]25. The scapular invented by Simon Stock of England...1251.[/b]
CORRECTION:
the Blessed Virgin appeared to St. Simon Stock at Cambridge, England, on Sunday, 16 July, 1251. In answer to his appeal for help for his oppressed order, she appeared to him with a scapular in her hand and said: "Take, beloved son this scapular of thy order as a badge of my confraternity and for thee and all Carmelites a special sign of grace;

[b]26. The doctrine of purgatory proclaimed a dogma by the Council of Florence...1439[/b].
CORRECTION:
Isaiah 6:6-7 1 Peter 3:19 Matt. 12:32 Luke 12:59 2 Macc. 12:43-46 Rev 20:13-15
Rev. 21:27 1 Cor 3:15
Purgatory was taught by the Jews hundreds of years before Christ. [url="http://www.jewfaq.org/death.htm#kaddish"]http://www.jewfaq.org/death.htm#kaddish[/url]

[b]27. Tradition is declared of equal authority with the Bible by the Council Trent...1546.[/b]
CORRECTION:
The bible does this. Also it is tradition that brought us the bible.
2 Thess 2:15
Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours.

2 Tim 2:2
And what you heard from me through many witnesses entrust to faithful people who will have the ability to teach others as well.

Romans 10:17
Thus faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through the word of Christ.

[b]28. The Apocryphal Books were added to the Bible by the Council of Trent...1545.[/b]
CORRECTION:
Wrong. The kjv took out books. The Catholic Church uses the Septuagint from 293 BC, which was used by Jesus and all Christians until the kjv was printed.

[b]29. The Immaculate Conception of Mary was proclaimed by Pope Pius IX in 1854.[/b]
CORRECTION:
The Immaculate Conception means that Mary, whose conception was brought about the normal way, was conceived without original sin or its stain—that’s what "immaculate" means: without stain. The essence of original sin consists in the deprivation of sanctifying grace, and its stain is a corrupt nature. Mary was preserved from these defects by God’s grace; from the first instant of her existence she was in the state of sanctifying grace and was free from the corrupt nature original sin brings.

The angel Gabriel said, "Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you" (Luke 1:28). The phrase "full of grace" is a translation of the Greek word kecharitomene. This word represents the proper name of the person being addressed by the angel, and it therefore expresses a characteristic quality of Mary. To be "Full of Grace" is to be without sin.

[b]30. Pope Pius IX condemns all scientific discoveries not approved by by the Roman Church...1864.[/b]
CORRECTION: No he didn't.


[b]31. Infallibility of the pope in matters of faith and morals proclaimed by the First Vatican Council...1870.[/b]
CORRECTION: see [url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Papal_Infallibility.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/library/Papal_Infallibility.asp[/url]

[b]32. Pius XI condemned the public schools...1930.[/b]
CORRECTION: No he didn't.

[b]33. Pius XI reaffirmed the doctrine that Mary is "The Mother of God" ...1931.[/b]CORRECTION: See the bible. Jesus is God. Jesus was in Mary's womb, Mary is the mother of God.
St John 19:25 Standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary of Magdala

Who's Jesus' mother? Mary, wife of Joseph. Who is Jesus, God the Son. Mary is therefore the Mother of God the Son.

[b]34. The dogma of the Assumption of the Virgin Mary was proclaimed by Pope Pius XII...1950.[/b]
CORRECTION:
See [url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Immaculate_Conception_and_Assum.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/library/Immaculate...n_and_Assum.asp[/url]

[b]35. Mary proclaimed the Mother of the Church by Pope Paul VI...1965. [/b]CORRECTION:
The Church is the body of Christ. Mary is the mother of our King, she was the first Christian. She is the mother of all Christians.
St John 19:26
When Jesus saw his mother and the disciple there whom he loved, he said to his mother, "Woman, behold, your son."



St. Augustine said it best....

St. Augustine
City of God -Book 18
CHAPTER 51 -- THAT THE CATHOLIC FAITH MAY BE CONFIRMED EVEN BY THE DISSENSIONS OF THE HERETICS.
But the devil, seeing the temples of the demons deserted, and the human race running to the name of the liberating Mediator, has moved the heretics under the Christian name to resist the Christian doctrine, as if they could be kept in the city of God indifferently without any correction, just as the city of confusion indifferently held the philosophers who were of diverse and adverse opinions. Those, therefore, in the Church of Christ who savor anything morbid and depraved, and, on being corrected that they may savor what is wholesome and right, contumaciously resist, and will not amend their pestiferous and deadly dogmas, but persist in defending them, become heretics, and, going without, are to be reckoned as enemies who serve for her discipline. For even thus they profit by their wickedness those true catholic members of Christ, since God makes a good use even of the wicked, and all things work together for good to them that love Him. For all the enemies of the Church, whatever error blinds or malice depraves them, exercise her patience if they receive the power to afflict her corporally; and if they only oppose her by wicked thought, they exercise her wisdom: but at the same time, if these enemies are loved, they exercise her benevolence, or even her beneficence, whether she deals with them by persuasive doctrine or by terrible discipline. And thus the devil, the prince of the impious city, when he stirs up his own vessels against the city of God that sojourns in this world, is permitted to do her no harm. For without doubt the divine providence procures for her both consolation through prosperity, that she may not be broken by adversity, and trial through adversity, that she may not be corrupted by prosperity; and thus each is tempered by the other, as we recognize in the Psalms that voice which arises from no other cause, "According to the multitude of my griefs in my heart, Thy consolations have delighted my soul." Hence also is that saying of the apostle, "Rejoicing in hope, patient in tribulation."

For it is not to be thought that what the same teacher says can at any time fail, "Whoever will live piously in Christ shall suffer persecution." Because even when those who are without do not rage, and thus there seems to be, and really is, tranquillity, which brings very much consolation, especially to the weak, yet there are not wanting, yea, there are many within who by their abandoned manners torment the hearts of those who live piously, since by them the Christian and catholic name is blasphemed; and the dearer that name is to those who will live piously in Christ, the more do they grieve that through the wicked, who have a place within, it comes to be less loved than pious minds desire. The heretics themselves also, since they are thought to have the Christian name and sacraments, Scriptures, and profession, cause great grief in the hearts of the pious, both because many who wish to be Christians are compelled by their dissensions to hesitate, and many evil-speakers also find in them matter for blaspheming the Christian name, because they too are at any rate called Christians. By these and similar depraved manners and errors of men, those who will live piously in Christ suffer persecution, even when no one molests or vexes their body; for they suffer this persecution, not in their bodies, but in their hearts. Whence is that word, "According to the multitude of my griefs in my heart;" for he does not say, in my body. Yet, on the other hand, none of them can perish, because the immutable divine promises are thought of. And because the apostle says, "The Lord knoweth them that are His; for whom He did foreknow, He also predestinated [to be] conformed to the image of His Son," none of them can perish; therefore it follows in that psalm, "Thy consolations have delighted my soul." But that grief which arises in the hearts of the pious, who are persecuted by the manners of bad or false Christians, is profitable to the sufferers, because it proceeds from the charity in which they do not wish them either to perish or to hinder the salvation of others. Finally, great consolations grow out of their chastisement, which imbue the souls of the pious with a fecundity as great as the pains with which they were troubled concerning their own perdition. Thus in this world, in these evil days, not only from the time of the bodily presence of Christ and His apostles, but even from that of Abel, whom first his wicked brother slew because he was righteous, and thenceforth even to the end of this world, the Church has gone forward on pilgrimage amid the persecutions of the world and the consolations of God.



God Bless, Love in Christ & Mary,
ironmonk
Militia Immaculata
KofC 3rd Degree

Edited April 15, 2004 by ironmonk

[Theoketos]

Where do find the time to dig this stuff up?

[phatcatholic]

ahhh, good stuff. i'm adding it to the "anti-catholic" entry. also, here's some more info on boettner:

--[url="http://www.catholic.com/library/The_Anti_Catholic_Bible.asp"]The Anti-Catholic Bible[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Catholic_Inventions.asp"]Catholic "Inventions"[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholic.com/library/More_Catholic_Inventions.asp"]More Catholic "Inventions"[/url]
--[url="http://allanturner.com/calbk_1.html"]Refuting Boettner's Calvinism[/url] ([b]note:[/b] from a non-Catholic source)
--[url="http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/num55.htm"]On the Iconoclastic Heresy[/url]

pax christi,
phatcatholic

[ironmonk]

[quote name='Theoketos' date='Apr 14 2004, 10:25 PM'] Where do find the time to dig this stuff up? [/quote]
Took about 3 1/2 hours... time flew by... I was hoping I'd have it done in an hour, but oh well.

God Bless,
ironmonk

[phatcatholic]

woh, its too long to add to the entry............that doesn't happen very often

[Theoketos]

God Bless you for it. I loved reading it.

[PhatPhred]

This is from [u]More Disputed Questions in the Liturgy[/u] by John M. Huels, OSM, JCD, page 62:

[quote]There is no evidence in the early church of any positive legislation requiring the faithful's attendance at Sunday eucharist.  The fact that the Christian community assembled each week on the Lord's Day is, however, indisputable.  Over the course of time the church came to consider its assembling on Sunday for eucharist as normative and binding, but it remained an unwritten custom rather than a written law.  The first time the Sunday Mass obligation was formally established in universal law was in the [i]Code of Canon Law[/i] of 1917.

The earliest positive legislation on Sunday Mass observance came from local councils.  The Council of Agde in 506 decreed that the faithful should not leave the Sunday eucharist before the blessing of the priest: "We enjoin by a special injunction that on the Lord's Day the laity shall be obliged to be present during the whole celebration of the Mass, so that the people do not presume to go out of church before the priest has given the Benediction."  In effect, this law did not establish a Sunday precept but insisted that the people stay for the entire Mass.  Other local councils in the sixth century enacted similar legislation.  Evidently, the problem of people leaving Mass early is not a new one.

From the seventh century on, numerous local councils treated matters related to Sunday Mass attendance.  This body of legislation shows that, by this period, Christians in many local churches were obliged by law to assist at Sunday Mass unless they had a legitimate excuse to be absent.  In many areas during the Middle Ages, the Sunday Mass obligation was supported by ecclesiastical or civil sanctions, including a variety of corporal punishments and fines.  The laws were binding only in the localities for which they were enacted, not for the universal church.[/quote]

[Justified Saint]

Well, I hope lumberjack reads this and responds because he was specifically asking for corrections to this list. Hopefully he will at least acknowledge it, I am sure ironmonk put a lot more time in refutting the list than Boettner did putting it together.

[IcePrincessKRS]

I'm pretty sure Lumberjack posted in the other thread that he was reading it and would reply to it as best as he could later.

[Dave]

Where, oh where, has Lumberjack gone?

[ironmonk]

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Apr 15 2004, 01:10 PM'] Where oh where has he gone....

[color=red][Edited by Good Friday: personal attacks.][/color]

It doesn't matter that all proofs point to the Catholic Church... [color=red][Edited by Good Friday: negative criticism of other religions.][/color] [/quote]
THIS IS A DEBATE BOARD OF RELIGION.

"negative criticism" - You better delete all of lumbers posts then.



"negative criticism" is a ridiculous reason to edit one of my posts. On that ground many of the people on the DEBATE boards posts would need to be edited.


Maybe there should be some better guidelines for mods that have multiple times brought drama to particular people's posts. Something like "mods that have gotten into heated debates with particular members need to let another mod judge on if a post needs editing of those particular members." The mod's judgment is clouded, and it would be better if a 3rd party that doesn't have strong feelings to modify the post.

Edited April 15, 2004 by ironmonk

[Good Friday]

I'll ask for another mod's opinion, and dUSt's, just to prove that I'm not out to get you. In the meantime, I'm not restoring your post, because I felt that it had prohibited content in it and it's my responsibility to get rid of such content before a million people see it.

I've locked this thread until dUSt and the other mod I asked make their decision. There's no need for it to spiral into utter ridiculousness until then.

Edited April 15, 2004 by Good Friday

[dUSt]

I support Good Friday's decision. Anyone who has questions should review the phorum guidelines, and remember that I hold Catholics to a higher standard than non-Catholics.

God bless.

[phatcatholic]

i found an article that refutes boettner's "inventions" as well. i can't tell if the refutations were written by the author of the article or if it was all exerpted from keating's book.

anyway, here's [b][url="http://www.canapologetics.net/html/inventions_.html"]the link[/url][/b]. its also provided below:

[quote][b]1. Making the sign of the cross began A.D. 300[/b] a) The theologian Tertullian, writing in 211, said, “We furrow our forehead with the sign [of the Cross].” Making the sign was already an old custom when he wrote. (Catholicism and Fundamentalism, p.38)

[b]2. Priests began to dress differently from laymen A.D. 500[/b] a) So what? The same charge can be brought against fundamentalist preachers who conduct services while dressed in choir robes. Boettner’s statement happens to be true, but it proves nothing. The main vestment worn by priests during the Mass is the chasuble. It is really nothing more than a stylized Roman overcoat. (C&F p.39)

[b]3. Extreme Unction invented in A.D. 526[/b] a) Boettner makes no effort to give the Church’s explanation of the sacrament’s origin...found in the New Testament itself: “Is one of you sick? Let him send for the presbyters of the Church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the Lord’s name. Prayer offered in faith will restore the sick man, and the Lord will give him relief; if he is guilty of sins, they will be pardoned” (James 5:14-15). (C&F p.39)

[b]4. Latin Language, used in prayer and worship, imposed by Gregory I in A.D. 600 [/b]a) Perhaps [Boettner] wants to suggest that, until recently, priests used Latin, even after the people had turned to vernacular tongues, in order to keep secret such things as what was happening during Mass. That theory does not hold up, since even Catholics who knew no Latin knew what was going on at Mass - all they had to do was look on the righthand pages of their missals to see the translation of the Latin that was on the facing pages. (C&F p.40)

[b]5. Worship of the Cross, images and relics, authorized in A.D. 786[/b] a) Catholics do not worship the Cross or images or relics. They use these physical objects to remind themselves of Christ and his special friends, the saints in heaven. (C&F p.40)

[b]6. Celibacy of the priesthood, decreed by Pope Gregory VII in A.D. 1079[/b] a) Catholics do not deny that some early Popes were married and that celibacy, for priests in the Latin (Western) Rite, did not become mandatory until the early Middle Ages...No one is forced to be a priest (or a nun, for that matter; nuns also do not marry) so no Catholic is forced to be celibate...celibacy is a disciplinary, not a doctrinal, injunction. (C&F pp.41-42)

[b]7. Transubstantiation, proclaimed by Pope Innocent III in A.D. 1215[/b] a) The implication is that transubstantiation was not believed until 1215...Transubstantiation is just a technical term used to describe what happens when the bread and wine used at Mass are turned into the actual Body and Blood of Christ. The belief...stems from the sixth chapter of John’s Gospel... (C&F p.42)

[b]8. Auricular confession of sins to a priest instead of to God, instituted by Pope Innocent III, in Lateran Council in A.D. 1215[/b] a) Origen, writing around 244, referred to the sinner who “does not shrink from declaring his sin to a priest of the Lord”. Cyprian of Carthage, writing seven years later, said, “Finally, of how much greater faith and more salutary fear are they who...confess to the priests of God in a straightforward manner and in sorrow, making an open declaration of conscience.” (C&F p.43)

[b]9. Adoration of the wafer (Host), decreed by Pope Honorius III in A.D. 1220[/b] a) What the reader is supposed to think, apparently, is that Catholics worship the bread used at Mass. They do not. What they worship is Christ, and they believe the bread and the wine are turned into his actual Body and Blood. (C&F p.44)

[b]10. Bible forbidden to laymen, placed on the Index of Forbidden Books by the Council of Toulouse in A.D. 1229[/b] a) [The] Index was established in 1543, so a council held in 1229 hardly could have listed a book on it...The council held in Toulouse dealt with the Albigensian heresy, a variety of Manichaeanism, which maintained that marriage is evil because the flesh is evil...In order to promulgate their views, the Albigensians used vernacular versions of the Bible to “substantiate” their theories...[and they] were twisting the Bible to support an immoral moral system. So the bishops at Toulouse restricted the use of the Bible until the heresy was ended. (C&F p.45)

[b]11. Cup forbidden to the people at Communion by Council of Constance in A.D. 1414[/b] a) [I]f both the Body and Blood are contained in [the host and the cup], then the communicant needs to receive only one...In 1414, there seemed to be [reasons to restrict the communicants to receiving only the host]. The first reason was that some people misunderstood the Eucharist and thought it had to be received under both forms because one form contained only the Body and the other only the Blood. By restricting communicants to the host alone the Church emphasized the true doctrine. (C&F p.46)

[b]12. Apocryphal books added to the Bible by the Council of Trent in A.D. 1546[/b] a) The fact is that the Council of Trent did not add to the Bible what Protestants call the apocryphal books. Instead, the Reformers dropped from the Bible books that had been in common use for centuries. (C&F p.46)

These half-truths (the main items not in bold) have been excerpted from the “Bible” of Anti-Catholic Fundamentalists, Roman Catholicism by Loraine Boettner on pages 7&8.

For a deeper understanding of the deception, lies and intentional distortions of the sacred beliefs, practices, devotions and history of the Catholic Church by (sometimes well- meaning) fundamentalists, please see Karl Keating’s Catholicism and Fundamentalism. It covers these items in further depth.

(Catholicism and Fundamentalism: The Attack on “Romanism” by “Bible Christians” by Karl Keating; Ignatius Press, 1988 Pp. 37-50)[/quote]

pax christi,
phatcatholic

Edited April 16, 2004 by phatcatholic

[CatholicCrusader]

Ironmonk,

Great post to debunk lumberjack's protestant myths and heresies. However, you said:

[quote]32. Pius XI condemned the public schools...1930.
CORRECTION: No he didn't.[/quote]

I don't know if he did or not, but it certainly wouldn't have been wrong for him to do so. In fact, he probably should have considering all the evil that goes on there... not that modernist Catholic schools (like mine) are any different...

Also, on religious criticism...I agree with you, as well.

1) This is a debate table

2) There is no such thing as "respect" for heretical religions--that has been invented by relativists over the past 30 or 40 years.

God bless.