What Do You Do

[aalpha1989]

[quote name='Socrates' date='11 June 2010 - 02:36 PM' timestamp='1276281397' post='2127332']
I don't think we're under any moral obligation to aid others in performing a gravely sinful and criminal act such as robbery, even if against ourselves. People certainly have a right to protect their property, though lethal force should be avoided as far as practical.
If someone has forcefully invaded our homes, he may indeed be a threat to the safety of ourselves and family, and self-defense and defense of others is certainly allowable. If it results in the criminal's death, too bad for him.
[b]Standing by and allowing an attacker to have his way with your family is not holy, but cowardice.[/b]
[/quote]


You are only correct if the intruder is threatening physical or spiritual violence, or if he is attempting to take something necessary for the family's survival. If one is single, on the other hand, it is always a matter of prudence.

Honestly though I am shocked at modern day conservatives' refusal to submit to holy martyrdom. Martyrdom is always the higher calling, not violence. It is cowardice to threaten physical violence and to love your life. If you die in the attempt to converse with the intruder then so be it; greater will be your reward in Heaven.

Again, everyone has the obligation to defend his family, but violence should only be the last resort. If possible one should accept martyrdom (though of course it is not a matter of sin if one does not accept it). I don't remember the apostles engaging in battle with the Jews... in fact I remember Jesus reprimanding Peter for not allowing Him to give up His life.

[SaintOfVirtue]

Where's the, "wave my gun in their face, fire a few warning rounds, and make THEM call 911" option.



[img]http://www.americanroadshop.com/mm5/graphics/00000001/63241_caution911streetsi.jpg[/img]

Edited June 11, 2010 by SaintOfVirtue

[aalpha1989]

I might add that to have such a great attachment to your TV that you would shoot an intruder to save it betrays great spiritual poverty. God forgive me if I say this in pride or out of some other vice, He knows I have enough of those.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='notardillacid' date='11 June 2010 - 05:06 PM' timestamp='1276290397' post='2127458']
It follows that the internet is far more of an offense to your philosophy, yet here you are.

At least I am consistent in my beliefs [/quote]
Of course, my life is inconsistent with my ideals in many more ways than that. Indeed, I am a primitivist but I currently work as a software engineer. It doesn't get much worse than that. I reject capitalism and yet at the moment my survival is based on it. These things combined necessitate my ownership of a computer for now. Socrates might agree with me that the wife and baby factor makes a big difference on how we weigh our options against our ideals and personal desires. But fear not ardill! I'm working on it. All in due time brother, all in due time.

[SaintOfVirtue]

I'd actually try to detain the crook at gun point, and make them phone the police so I can keep both hands on my gun. If they make a wrong move, well then, they trespassed into the wrong house.
Self-defense I believe is morally acceptable, part of self-defense is defense of personal property.

[Era Might]

[quote name='SaintOfVirtue' date='11 June 2010 - 05:37 PM' timestamp='1276292268' post='2127481']I'd actually try to detain the crook at gun point, and make them phone the police so I can keep both hands on my gun. If they make a wrong move, well then, they trespassed into the wrong house.
Self-defense I believe is morally acceptable, part of self-defense is defense of personal property.
[/quote]
I would feel sorry for anyone who would kill for a television.

Edited June 11, 2010 by Era Might

[aalpha1989]

[quote name='SaintOfVirtue' date='11 June 2010 - 05:37 PM' timestamp='1276292268' post='2127481']
Self-defense I believe is morally acceptable, part of self-defense is defense of personal property.
[/quote]


Yes, I never denied this truth... but to focus on it and to make it the ideal for your life is to deny the higher truth that martyrdom is always best. We should strive whenever possible to accept higher callings from God; if it is not His will that you suffer martyrdom He will preserve you.


I will reiterate again (because it seems that earlier posts often get forgotten) that one [i]must [/i]defend one's family. Family is a legitimate reason to engage in physical self-defense.

[SaintOfVirtue]

I actually find this whole scenario rather unrealistic so my responses thus far have been more jovial than serious. This scenario is unrealistic for the following reasons:

1. Crooks aren't looking for hard time. If they break into a house and someone is there, they will run away.

2. If they don't run away, then they are more than likely armed and willing to fight for whatever it is they came for.

3. I doubt they will stand in the door way and discuss whether or not they will take your TV or just leave.

4. Any TV worth stealing is usually to large for one person to move by himself, and many are bolted to walls.

5. Read #4 again. He must have brought help with him.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Socrates' date='11 June 2010 - 11:20 AM' timestamp='1276273245' post='2127254']
I'd strut my stuff physically, maybe do a little dance.

[/quote]
Would you also do your little turn on the catwalk?

[ardillacid]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='11 June 2010 - 05:28 PM' timestamp='1276291680' post='2127476']
Of course, my life is inconsistent with my ideals in many more ways than that. Indeed, I am a primitivist but I currently work as a software engineer. It doesn't get much worse than that. I reject capitalism and yet at the moment my survival is based on it. These things combined necessitate my ownership of a computer for now. Socrates might agree with me that the wife and baby factor makes a big difference on how we weigh our options against our ideals and personal desires. But fear not ardill! I'm working on it. All in due time brother, all in due time.
[/quote]
So basically you are using the lifestyle you chose as your excuse? weak sauce

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='aalpha1989' date='11 June 2010 - 04:25 PM' timestamp='1276291525' post='2127474']
I might add that to have such a great attachment to your TV that you would shoot an intruder to save it betrays great spiritual poverty.
[/quote]

I may not have been looking hard enough, but I didn't see anyone saying that he would shoot someone over a TV.

I am nearly certain that the people speaking about using violence were speaking of peripheral threats, not a threat to their [i]Lumen Gentium.

[/i]I have little reason to trust the word of anyone who breaks into houses to steal things.

[i] [/i]~Sternhauser

Edited June 12, 2010 by Sternhauser

[Norseman82]

If he is stealing a TV, chances are his hands are full so that I could get behind him and put a "sleeper choke" on him to incapacitate or restrain him until the police arrive.

One point I don't think I saw mentioned in any of the replies is that by "letting him go" the criminal can victimize more human beings - maybe even violently, so by not letting the criminal get away we are actually doing society a favor - and maybe giving the criminal a chance to think hard about his life and repent.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='notardillacid' date='11 June 2010 - 07:27 PM' timestamp='1276298876' post='2127534']
So basically you are using the lifestyle you chose as your excuse? weak sauce
[/quote]
flamebait[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=105963"]?[/url]

[ardillacid]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='12 June 2010 - 12:47 AM' timestamp='1276318050' post='2127647']
flamebait[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=105963"]?[/url]
[/quote]
<------------------you dodging my post

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='notardillacid' date='12 June 2010 - 01:41 AM' timestamp='1276321298' post='2127658']
<------------------you dodging my post
[/quote]
[IMG]http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h119/NoonienSoong_2006/Lulz/haters.gif[/IMG]