D-Day

[CatherineM]

I grew up listening to my father scream in his sleep several times a week. It wasn't nightmares about being beaten or being in a plane in flames. It was seeing the faces of the men he killed. He lived with it every day for the rest of his life. Ask a cop or a soldier who has had to kill in the line of duty, and they will tell you the same thing. Stern has shown his absolute disdain for men and women who put themselves in harms way for the security or stability of our society. He is certainly entitled to his opinion about America and the people who risked their lives for it. I guess I'm just curious why someone who dislikes America so much doesn't just leave. I left the country, not because I quit loving it, but because I loved my husband more. Where I'm from, someone calls your war hero father a war criminal, and it would be time to get the swords out.

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='07 June 2010 - 03:08 AM' timestamp='1275894525' post='2125126']
Certainly he made his intention clear in his second post. But even the first was very snarky and disrespectful. Asking the question "Or did he kill the guy, then take it off his body as a souvenir?" Was certainly and clearly disrespectful. I think those of us born after D-Day forget that thousands and thousands of men that day were cut down like blades of grass. Waves and waves of Allied troops killed. Iraq and Afghanistan in many ways both pale in comparison to the bloodshed and warfare. This thread was meant to honor those that had to go through that hell on earth. It was not meant to accuse or imply that one of them committed some type of war crime.
[/quote]
Alright. I understand now. I think my own relatives pulled some decorations off enemies as "souvenirs". It was just the thing to do. And yes, they were mowed down like grass, but war was different back then. Military is a lot more technological, therefore fighting has to be tactical than rushing the lines the way they did.

[quote name='CatherineM' date='07 June 2010 - 11:27 AM' timestamp='1275924462' post='2125190']
I grew up listening to my father scream in his sleep several times a week. It wasn't nightmares about being beaten or being in a plane in flames. It was seeing the faces of the men he killed. He lived with it every day for the rest of his life. Ask a cop or a soldier who has had to kill in the line of duty, and they will tell you the same thing. Stern has shown his absolute disdain for men and women who put themselves in harms way for the security or stability of our society. He is certainly entitled to his opinion about America and the people who risked their lives for it. I guess I'm just curious why someone who dislikes America so much doesn't just leave. I left the country, not because I quit loving it, but because I loved my husband more. Where I'm from, someone calls your war hero father a war criminal, and it would be time to get the swords out.
[/quote]
'tis true. He won't like Canada, though. We have troops off fighting as well.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Semper Catholic' date='06 June 2010 - 09:47 PM' timestamp='1275875230' post='2125016']
LOL yeah there's Sternhauser standing behind the soldier on D-Day, in hand to hand life or death combat with a Nazi saying "Umm, excuse me, umm article 76-2.85 of the Geneva Convention says you're not allowed to be so rough."
[/quote]

This made me laugh.

[Jesus_lol]

just figured i would add my Grandpa's story.
he was drafted into the Hitler youth as a child in Austria, then later sent off to war(which at that time, was the better option than staying home and starving, many men joined the army because it fed them and kept them clothed) as a soldier and later a tank driver. i cant remember where he was stationed, but he survived being shot twice and a couple of the tanks he was in were destroyed. He lost several childhood friends that i am aware of as well, who were fighting alongside him.

later on after being shot the second time he was captured by the Allied forces(americans i think) and since he was one of the only guys who knew english and german, he was taken out of the POW camps and enlisted as a translator for the american side. later on when the war was finished and he was living in england, he met my grandmother, followed her to the states and back, married her and moved to canada with nothing.

like most people, he later found out how truly evil the acts committed under the Nazis were, and has been nearly obsessed with gathering knowledge about it, and the war time in general.

He was a soldier and many other things, but he was not a Nazi. most of the soldiers fighting for the other side were the same as the people they fought.
just wanted to point that out.

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' date='08 June 2010 - 04:26 PM' timestamp='1276028809' post='2125845']
just figured i would add my Grandpa's story.
he was drafted into the Hitler youth as a child in Austria, then later sent off to war(which at that time, was the better option than staying home and starving, many men joined the army because it fed them and kept them clothed) as a soldier and later a tank driver. i cant remember where he was stationed, but he survived being shot twice and a couple of the tanks he was in were destroyed. He lost several childhood friends that i am aware of as well, who were fighting alongside him.

later on after being shot the second time he was captured by the Allied forces(americans i think) and since he was one of the only guys who knew english and german, he was taken out of the POW camps and enlisted as a translator for the american side. later on when the war was finished and he was living in england, he met my grandmother, followed her to the states and back, married her and moved to canada with nothing.

like most people, he later found out how truly evil the acts committed under the Nazis were, and has been nearly obsessed with gathering knowledge about it, and the war time in general.

He was a soldier and many other things, but he was not a Nazi. most of the soldiers fighting for the other side were the same as the people they fought.
just wanted to point that out.
[/quote]
Glad you told this story. I was actually sort of upset when dominican seemed so zealously excited when her relative beat the crud out of an enemy and then stole his decorations. They're actual people! They weren't like those who served in the death camps. The people on the front were "sheep": they were forced or had a certain nationalistic ideal of fighting for the home country. A lot had no idea of the horrors. A lot of men died not knowing the evils that occurred.

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='Sacred Music Man' date='08 June 2010 - 04:41 PM' timestamp='1276029665' post='2125863']
Glad you told this story. I was actually sort of upset when dominican seemed so zealously excited when her relative beat the crud out of an enemy and then stole his decorations. They're actual people! They weren't like those who served in the death camps. The people on the front were "sheep": they were forced or had a certain nationalistic ideal of fighting for the home country. A lot had no idea of the horrors. A lot of men died not knowing the evils that occurred.
[/quote]

i actually wasn't excited my dad beat the guy up...it just came up like that in the post...like always, many comments can be read wrong, because you aren't able to hear or see me while I'm expressing them...

I was just stating a fact, my dad literally beat the croutons out of this guy...I think I clarified in the next post why he did it...

I wasn't thinking he was a hero just 'cos he beat the croutons outta a nazi...seriously...why would anyone think I was saying that?

my dad is a person, too, and unless you've been in the heat of battle, and threatened with your life, you can't judge men like my father...

...he didn't see it as "stealing"...thousands of soldiers took home souvenirs of the war...

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='06 June 2010 - 09:04 PM' timestamp='1275876293' post='2125028']
You have no honor, at least none that compares to men like DS's father who risked and gave their lives for our freedom. You have no way of knowing what exactly happened, thus you have no right to judge DS's father as some kind of war criminal. It sounds as if it was hand to hand combat life or death. There's a time a place for you to spew your garbage but this thread isn't one of them.
[/quote]

Did I say he was a war criminal? I asked serious questions. Her description of the events[i] raised[/i] those serious questions. Life or death is one thing: taking something that belonged to the soldier while he was nearly unconscious? That is another thing. I am upset that after he beat him him, he took his property. What would you think if a German soldier beat the tar out of an American soldier and took his Bronze Star? Many of the Germans thought they were fighting for their country. Was it immoral for German soldiers to fight in WWII? Aren't they supposed to trust the powers that be that their cause is just?

Do you truly believe that those soldiers protect "our freedom?" They did not protect our freedom. The impossibility of the logistics protected our freedom. As Yamamoto allegedly declared, "It would be impossible to invade America. There would be a rifle behind every blade of grass." Even if he did not say it, it is true. Neither the Germans nor the Japanese could have possibly invaded and occupied America. The Japanese took Attu. For a few weeks. Their soldiers were starving across the tiny islands of the Pacific. The Germans had Russia to contend with. They were spread too far thin. It is completely contrary to the facts to say that the Germans or the Japanese had any capacity to invade and occupy America, therefore, it is intellectually dishonest to say that any soldiers who died fighting them "protected our freedom." No disrespect to them. They were liberating France, Italy, the Netherlands, Belgium, etc. But ask any WWII vet what he was fighting for, and he will tell you that he wasn't fighting for "liberty," he was fighting for his buddies, with whom he was mired in that mess. He was fighting to make it home.

~Sternhauser

Edited June 8, 2010 by Sternhauser

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='CatherineM' date='07 June 2010 - 10:27 AM' timestamp='1275924462' post='2125190']
He is certainly entitled to his opinion about America and the people who risked their lives for it. I guess I'm just curious why someone who dislikes America so much doesn't just leave.
[/quote]

America is not the United State government and its policies. America is a geographic place, mapped out by a cartographer. I live in America. It was not about to be invaded in WWII. Not even close. I live among my neighbors whom I love, and among the rivers and valleys and mountains that comprise the landscape. America is a place. The United State is an idea. The United State government, insofar as it is based on the idea that some men have the right to initiate violence against other men? (Anti-social behavior.) The United State affects me, yes. But I do not live [i]in[/i] an idea, I live in a network of voluntary, mutually-beneficial interpersonal relationships: society. One day, you will come to realize the difference between a government and a country.

I do not live here because of the United State government and its policies. I live here in spite of them. I live here because I love my neighbors and much of the culture.

~Sternhauser

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='08 June 2010 - 07:20 PM' timestamp='1276039230' post='2125973']
Did I say he was a war criminal? I asked serious questions. Her description of the events[i] raised[/i] those serious questions. Life or death is one thing: taking something that belonged to the soldier while he was nearly unconscious? That is another thing. I am upset that after he beat him him, he took his property. What would you think if a German soldier beat the tar out of an American soldier and took his Bronze Star? Many of the Germans thought they were fighting for their country. Was it immoral for German soldiers to fight in WWII? Aren't they supposed to trust the powers that be that their cause is just?

Do you truly believe that those soldiers protect "our freedom?" They did not protect our freedom. The impossibility of the logistics protected our freedom. As Yamamoto allegedly declared, "It would be impossible to invade America. There would be a rifle behind every blade of grass." Even if he did not say it, it is true. Neither the Germans nor the Japanese could have possibly invaded and occupied America. The Japanese took Attu. For a few weeks. Their soldiers were starving across the tiny islands of the Pacific. The Germans had Russia to contend with. They were spread too far thin. It is completely contrary to the facts to say that the Germans or the Japanese had any possibility to invade and occupy America, therefore, it is intellectually dishonest to say that any soldiers who died fighting them "protected our freedom." No disrespect to them. They were liberating France, Italy, the Netherlands, Belgium, etc. But ask any WWII vet what he was fighting for, and he will tell you that he wasn't fighting for "liberty," he was fighting for his buddies, with whom he was mired in that mess. He was fighting to make it home.

~Sternhauser
[/quote]


You did imply he was a war criminal by implying that he broke Article 18 of the Geneva Convention. Breaking Article 18 of the Geneva Convention would be a war crime, someone who commits war crimes is a war criminal.

This thread was meant to honor the men who fought in WWII on D-Day, not to debate your views of the State.

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='08 June 2010 - 06:28 PM' timestamp='1276039702' post='2125977']
You did imply he was a war criminal by implying that he broke Article 18 of the Geneva Convention. Breaking Article 18 of the Geneva Convention would be a war crime, someone who commits war crimes is a war criminal.
[/quote]

Did he take the German prisoner? Or did he just beat him up and leave him there? If he stole the Iron Cross of a prisoner, he [i]is [/i]a war criminal, according to the Geneva Convention!

~Sternhauser

Edited June 8, 2010 by Sternhauser

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='dominicansoul' date='08 June 2010 - 05:01 PM' timestamp='1276030901' post='2125881']
i actually wasn't excited my dad beat the guy up...it just came up like that in the post...like always, many comments can be read wrong, because you aren't able to hear or see me while I'm expressing them...

I was just stating a fact, my dad literally beat the croutons out of this guy...I think I clarified in the next post why he did it...

I wasn't thinking he was a hero just 'cos he beat the croutons outta a nazi...seriously...why would anyone think I was saying that?

my dad is a person, too, and unless you've been in the heat of battle, and threatened with your life, you can't judge men like my father...

...he didn't see it as "stealing"...thousands of soldiers took home souvenirs of the war...
[/quote]

My Uncle who fought on Utah beach said that the moment the door went down on the boat the two men directly behind him, the three men on each side of him, and the one in front of him where all shot instantly. And still he charged off the boat. It was the only story of the war he would ever tell anyone.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='08 June 2010 - 07:20 PM' timestamp='1276039230' post='2125973']
Did I say he was a war criminal? I asked serious questions. Her description of the events[i] raised[/i] those serious questions. Life or death is one thing: taking something that belonged to the soldier while he was nearly unconscious? That is another thing. I am upset that after he beat him him, he took his property. What would you think if a German soldier beat the tar out of an American soldier and took his Bronze Star? Many of the Germans thought they were fighting for their country. Was it immoral for German soldiers to fight in WWII? Aren't they supposed to trust the powers that be that their cause is just?

Do you truly believe that those soldiers protect "our freedom?" They did not protect our freedom. The impossibility of the logistics protected our freedom. As Yamamoto allegedly declared, "It would be impossible to invade America. There would be a rifle behind every blade of grass." Even if he did not say it, it is true. Neither the Germans nor the Japanese could have possibly invaded and occupied America. The Japanese took Attu. For a few weeks. Their soldiers were starving across the tiny islands of the Pacific. The Germans had Russia to contend with. They were spread too far thin. It is completely contrary to the facts to say that the Germans or the Japanese had any capacity to invade and occupy America, therefore, it is intellectually dishonest to say that any soldiers who died fighting them "protected our freedom." No disrespect to them. They were liberating France, Italy, the Netherlands, Belgium, etc. But ask any WWII vet what he was fighting for, and he will tell you that he wasn't fighting for "liberty," he was fighting for his buddies, with whom he was mired in that mess. He was fighting to make it home.

~Sternhauser
[/quote]

You call it "intellectually dishonest" to say that our soldiers fought for freedom as if you have the authority to make such a claim, and then you proceed to speak with authority when you say our soldiers fought for his fellow soldiers and his desire to go home. So you are allowed to make a generalization but no one else is?

[picchick]

Leave it to Sternhauser to be an ass to and about the people who helped stop evil communism and protect his freedom. I forgot. He'd rather go through life passively riding on the backs of those who dared to join the military than stand up for them.

You know what, Sternhauser? Why don't you stop running your mouth and disrespecting people who fight everyday for YOU and your ungrateful self?

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='08 June 2010 - 06:51 PM' timestamp='1276041084' post='2125995']
You call it "intellectually dishonest" to say that our soldiers fought for freedom as if you have the authority to make such a claim, and then you proceed to speak with authority when you say our soldiers fought for his fellow soldiers and his desire to go home. So you are allowed to make a generalization but no one else is?
[/quote]

I call it intellectually dishonest to say that the United State soldiers (I don't have any soldiers) fought for the freedom of [i]Americans.[/i]

It's not a generalization. If you've done enough reading and talking to people who were there, you'll realize it's true. And if you don't, that's not my issue.

~Sternhauser

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='picchick' date='08 June 2010 - 07:02 PM' timestamp='1276041720' post='2125998']
Leave it to Sternhauser to be an ass to and about the people who helped stop evil communism and protect his freedom. I forgot. He'd rather go through life passively riding on the backs of those who dared to join the military than stand up for them.

You know what, Sternhauser? Why don't you stop running your mouth and disrespecting people who fight everyday for YOU and your ungrateful self?
[/quote]


"Stop evil Communism?" You obviously don't have any idea what you are speaking about. Otherwise you'd realize that the same President Roosevelt who sent the soldiers to war to fight "communism," while simultaneously supplying the Soviets with trucks, weapons and SPAM, then went on, at the Yalta conference, to divide up Europe using a [i]National Geographic[/i] map, giving control over a vast portion of post-war Europe to Uncle Stalin, followed by "Operation Keelhaul," in which [i]tens of thousands[/i] of Eastern Europeans were [i]delivered directly into the hands[/i] of the Communists.

To quote someone who "fought for me," former Army Corporal Prysner, who was in the United State Army from 2001-2004, after [i]he[/i] lived a reality check,

"I still had the same drive to fight for freedom, justice and equality as I did when I joined, and I understood that fighting for those things meant fighting against the US government, not on behalf of it."To those who call him and his organization "anti-American" and/or "unpatriotic," Prysner has this to say:

"I would say that I have more in common with my sisters and brothers in Iraq and Afghanistan than I do with these people in DC who've sent us to war. If that's unpatriotic, then yes, I am. But patriotism and racism are the only things the military has to fall back on to convince people to do the things we are being asked to do today.

People who join and take this oath seriously who think they are in [the military] to defend the US, this is not what we are being used for in the military today." [url="http://www.truthout.org/1214091"]http://www.truthout.org/1214091[/url]

As Sergeant Cirillo said, "I had been fighting myself internally after my time in Iraq, about whether to deploy again," he explained to Truthout, "I ended up back in my old unit that was preparing to deploy, [to Afghanistan, this time] so at that moment I took it into my hands, and decided I wasn't going to go kill Afghans that had done nothing to me, or the American people. It was a defining moment for me."

As [url="http://www.lewrockwell.com/gaddy/gaddy27.html"]Michael Gaddy[/url], veteran of Viet Nam, Beirut and Grenada writes,

[font="Times New Roman, Times, serif"][size="3"]"Simple facts most soldiers do not understand: The government (state) is not our country; when you fight and die in undeclared wars, you do so for the State and not for our country or our freedoms; when you forsake the Constitution you swore to uphold and defend to follow unconstitutional orders, even from your commander-in-chief, you cross the line from defender of your country to the very real possibility of becoming a war criminal.[/size][/font]

[font="Times New Roman, Times, serif"][size="3"]The inboxes at my email sites are constantly bombarded with pictures and articles designed to pull at my heartstrings and make me believe there are troops in Iraq and Afghanistan fighting for our freedoms. Many of these have wonderful stirring music intended to make one stand and salute. They picture our soldiers holding young Iraqi children and playing with stray animals – a fit sermon indeed for those who hold membership in the Church of Nationalism and worship its god: the State."[/size][/font]

Marine Fred Reed, who lost nearly all of his vision in Viet Nam: [url="http://www.lewrockwell.com/reed/reed162.html"]Is Military Service Honorable?[/url]
[font="Times New Roman, Times, serif"][size="3"]"But it’s all about democracy and freedom and patriotism and Saving America from…from something. The hoopla changes little, and how well it works. Patriotic friends sometimes say to me of the military ardent things like, “When your country says go, you go!” I seldom point out that no one in their families is in the slightest danger of having to go, nor that “the country” is recruiting hard and they aren’t urging their children to enlist; nor do I ask, “What is your attitude toward having your daughter drafted onto the streets of Baghdad for five tours, perhaps coming back drooling and gurbling for life after having her brains scrambled by a roadside bomb?” Patriotism is important to patriots. They are full of it, and I’m about a quart low. I shut up. I don’t want to lose friends."[/size][/font]


They've been there. They know of what they speak. Which is wiser? To recognize the truth of what they are saying without putting oneself in their boots, or to willingly suffer the lies firsthand, then come to the truth, as they did? Or am I supposed to drink in the words of the majority, because the majority is usually right on most issues?

~Sternhauser

Edited June 9, 2010 by Sternhauser