The Philosophy Of Liberty

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='05 June 2010 - 12:23 AM' timestamp='1275711824' post='2123976']
Authority can't be enforced by men. One either has or does not have authority, authority being the [i]moral[/i] power of command. Authority [i]morally [/i]requires[i] [/i]obedience. It is [i]morally[/i] binding. Using physical force to uphold authority is like using torture to save souls.




I'm making a logical comparison. You said that authority (a [i]moral[/i] power) is not authority (doesn't exist) without the physical ability to uphold it. That is logically the same as saying that one's moral right to not be raped doesn't exist if that [i]moral [/i]right can't [i]physically[/i] be enforced.




Does the State have the right to use physical violence to enforce any aspect of the moral law? And what is the end of that violence? To enforce [i]physical[/i] compliance with a[i] moral [/i]law, or rather, to coerce the will itself, a grave evil?


~Sternhauser
[/quote]

Seriously though if we're going to [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=105377"]debate[/url] the [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=105377"]same exact[/url] thing we just debate a [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=105377"]couple days[/url] ago we may as well start [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=105377"]where we left off[/url] in that [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=105377"]thread[/url]. This thread is just a way to try and forget that thread, a way to forget how you were put to silence, and how your views are not in line with the Church or reality.

Edited June 5, 2010 by KnightofChrist

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='05 June 2010 - 04:39 PM' timestamp='1275773955' post='2124217']
Seriously though if we're going to [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=105377"]debate[/url] the [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=105377"]same exact[/url] thing we just debate a [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=105377"]couple days[/url] ago we may as well start [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=105377"]where we left off[/url] in that [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=105377"]thread[/url]. This thread is just a way to try and forget that thread, a way to forget how you were put to silence, and how your views are not in line with the Church or reality.
[/quote]

Put to silence? No. You were copying and pasting again, not responding to my questions. I won't waste my time on that.

"All power comes from God. Every ruler is set up by God. Thus, [i]any [/i]exercise of power is an act in conformity with God's will. Physical violence can justly be used to coerce the will of other people into physically complying with an edict and/or any requirement of the moral law." That's what you're really saying, whether you realize it or not.

I'm saying that those who have power have their power from God, but that they, too, are bound by the same moral law that binds everyone else.

Now, please respond to the points in post number 10 in this thread. You, personally. In your own words.

~Sternhauser

Edited June 5, 2010 by Sternhauser

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='05 June 2010 - 05:48 PM' timestamp='1275774519' post='2124223']
Put to silence? No. You were copying and pasting again, not responding to my questions. I won't waste my time on that.

~Sternhauser
[/quote]

Again were talking about the same thing so we may as well start where we left off. I was sourcing my argue with writen Church documents, some Church documents which you have rejected as non-authoritative, such as the CCC, and encyclicals. So people can believe your wild conspiracy theories based on hate for the State or they can believe the Church.

Edited June 5, 2010 by KnightofChrist

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='05 June 2010 - 04:50 PM' timestamp='1275774627' post='2124224']
Again were talking about the same thing so we may as well start where we left off. I was sourcing my argue with writen Church documents, some Church documents which you have rejected as non-authoritative, such as the CCC, and encyclicals. So people can believe your wild conspiracy theories based on hate for the State or they can believe the Church.
[/quote]

I don't hate the State as defined by Fr. Fagothey. Your entire argument hinges on the "official Catholic definition" of the State. It's defined marriage, it's defined the Eucharist, it's defined sin, it's defined baptism. But you've got no official definition of the State. Hard to work with that, Knight. The first step of any argument is to define and agree upon terms. We apparently can't do that, so you might as well keep saying I adhere to heresy. You'll be in the saintly company of Bellarmine, who said Galileo was preaching heresy.

~Sternhauser

Edited June 5, 2010 by Sternhauser

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='05 June 2010 - 06:01 PM' timestamp='1275775282' post='2124228']
I don't hate the State as defined by Fr. Fagothey. Your entire argument hinges on the "official Catholic definition" of the State. It's defined marriage, it's defined the Eucharist, it's defined sin, it's defined baptism. But you've got no official definition of the State. Hard to work with that, Knight. The first step of any argument is to define and agree upon terms. We apparently can't do that, so you might as well keep saying I adhere to heresy. You'll be in the saintly company of Bellarmine, who said Galileo was preaching heresy.

~Sternhauser
[/quote]

Have you ever noticed I'm the only one that disagrees with you that gives you a time of day? I have, know why? Because the vast majority know your views are well... silly at best, crazy at worse. Anyone who has not been influenced by the sin and heresy of anarchy or its daughters can go and look at that other thread and see your views aren't in line with the Church's. And also note that you do not deny that you reject the binding authority of the CCC, and encyclicals. Both of which do give a definition of the State, and say things counter to your beliefs such as paying taxes.

Again people can believe you or the Church, I pray they believe the Church.

Edited June 5, 2010 by KnightofChrist

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='05 June 2010 - 05:13 PM' timestamp='1275776019' post='2124233']
Have you ever noticed I'm the only one that disagrees with you that gives you a time of day? I have, know why? Because the vast majority know your views are well... silly at best, crazy at worse. Anyone who has not been influenced by the sin and heresy of anarchy or its daughters can go and look at that other thread and see your views aren't in line with the Church's. And also note that you do not deny that you reject the binding authority of the CCC, and encyclicals. Both of which do give a definition of the State, and say things counter to your beliefs such as paying taxes.
[/quote]

What's the definition of the State in the CCC?

~Sternhauser

Edited June 5, 2010 by Sternhauser

[KnightofChrist]

But you reject the CCC as authoritative... but anyway...

The CCC says citizens have a duty to pay taxes.

[quote]Submission to authority and co-responsibility for the common good make it morally obligatory to pay taxes, to exercise the right to vote, and to defend one's country: Pay to all of them their dues, taxes to whom taxes are due, revenue to whom revenue is due, respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due. [/quote]

Pope Leo XIII in his Encyclical Immortale Dei, does a good job at explaining what a State is...


[quote]It is not difficult to determine what would be the form and character of the State were it governed according to the principles of Christian philosophy. Man's natural instinct moves him to live in civil society, for he cannot, if dwelling apart, provide himself with the necessary requirements of life, nor procure the means of developing his mental and moral faculties. Hence it is divinely ordained that he should lead his life, be it family, social, or civil, with his fellow-men, amongst whom alone his several wants can be adequately supplied. But as no society can hold together unless someone be over all, directing all to strive earnestly for the cornmon good, every civilized community must have a ruling authority, and this authority, no less than society itself, has its source in nature, and has consequently God for its author. Hence it follows that all public power must proceed from God. For God alone is the true and supreme Lord of the world. Everything without exception must be subject to Him, and must serve Him, so that whosoever holds the right to govern, holds it from one sole and single source, namely God, the Sovereign Ruler of all. 'There is no power but from God.'[/quote]

Edited June 5, 2010 by KnightofChrist

[KnightofChrist]

[b]CCC

V. THE AUTHORITIES IN CIVIL SOCIETY[/b]

[b]2234 God's fourth commandment also enjoins us to honor all who for our good have received authority in society from God. It clarifies the duties of those who exercise authority as well as those who benefit from it.
[/b]

[b]Duties of civil authorities[/b]

2235 Those who exercise authority should do so as a service. "Whoever would be great among you must be your servant."41 The exercise of authority is measured morally in terms of its divine origin, its reasonable nature and its specific object. No one can command or establish what is contrary to the dignity of persons and the natural law.

2236 The exercise of authority is meant to give outward expression to a just [b]hierarchy[/b] of values in order to facilitate the exercise of freedom and responsibility by all. Those in authority should practice distributive justice wisely, taking account of the needs and contribution of each, with a view to harmony and peace. They should take care that the regulations and measures they adopt are not a source of temptation by setting personal interest against that of the community.42

2237 Political authorities are obliged to respect the fundamental rights of the human person. They will dispense justice humanely by respecting the rights of everyone, especially of families and the disadvantaged.

The political rights attached to citizenship can and should be granted according to the requirements of the common good. They cannot be suspended by public authorities without legitimate and proportionate reasons. Political rights are meant to be exercised for the common good of the nation and the human community.

[b]The duties of citizens[/b]

2238 Those subject to authority should regard those in authority as representatives of God, who has made them stewards of his gifts:43 "Be subject for the Lord's sake to every human institution. . . . Live as free men, yet without using your freedom as a pretext for evil; but live as servants of God."44 Their loyal collaboration includes the right, and at times the duty, to voice their just criticisms of that which seems harmful to the dignity of persons and to the good of the community.

2239 It is the duty of citizens to contribute along with the civil authorities to the good of society in a spirit of truth, justice, solidarity, and freedom. The love and service of one's country follow from the duty of gratitude and belong to the order of charity. Submission to legitimate authorities and service of the common good require citizens to fulfill their roles in the life of the political community.

2240 Submission to authority and co-responsibility for the common good make it morally obligatory to pay taxes, to exercise the right to vote, and to defend one's country:

Pay to all of them their dues, taxes to whom taxes are due, revenue to whom revenue is due, respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due.45

[Christians] reside in their own nations, but as resident aliens. They participate in all things as citizens and endure all things as foreigners. . . . They obey the established laws and their way of life surpasses the laws. . . . So noble is the position to which God has assigned them that they are not allowed to desert it.46

The Apostle exhorts us to offer prayers and thanksgiving for kings and all who exercise authority, "that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way."47

2241 The more prosperous nations are obliged, to the extent they are able, to welcome the foreigner in search of the security and the means of livelihood which he cannot find in his country of origin. Public authorities should see to it that the natural right is respected that places a guest under the protection of those who receive him.

Political authorities, for the sake of the common good for which they are responsible, may make the exercise of the right to immigrate subject to various juridical conditions, especially with regard to the immigrants' duties toward their country of adoption. Immigrants are obliged to respect with gratitude the material and spiritual heritage of the country that receives them, to obey its laws and to assist in carrying civic burdens.

2242 The citizen is obliged in conscience not to follow the directives of civil authorities when they are contrary to the demands of the moral order, to the fundamental rights of persons or the teachings of the Gospel. Refusing obedience to civil authorities, when their demands are contrary to those of an upright conscience, finds its justification in the distinction between serving God and serving the political community. "Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's."48 "We must obey God rather than men":49

When citizens are under the oppression of a public authority which oversteps its competence, they should still not refuse to give or to do what is objectively demanded of them by the common good; but it is legitimate for them to defend their own rights and those of their fellow citizens against the abuse of this authority within the limits of the natural law and the Law of the Gospel.50

2243 Armed resistance to oppression by political authority is not legitimate, unless all the following conditions are met: 1) there is certain, grave, and prolonged violation of fundamental rights; 2) all other means of redress have been exhausted; 3) such resistance will not provoke worse disorders; 4) there is well-founded hope of success; and 5) it is impossible reasonably to foresee any better solution.

41 Mt 20:26.
42 Cf. CA 25.
43 Cf. Rom 13:1-2.
44 1 Pet 2:13,16.
45 Rom 13:7.
46 Ad Diognetum 5,5 and 10; 6,10:PG 2,1173 and 1176.
47 1 Tim 2:2.
48 Mt 22:21.
49 Acts 5:29.
50 GS 74 § 5.
51 Cf. CA 45; 46.
52 GS 76 § 3.
53 GS 76 § 5.

[Sternhauser]

I asked for the definition of the State. You gave me its attributes.

"The matrimonial covenant, by which a man and a woman establish betweenthemselves a partnership of the whole of life, is by its nature ordered towardthe good of the spouses and the procreation and education of offspring; thiscovenant between baptized persons has been raised by Christ the Lord to thedignity of a sacrament."

That is a definition. It lays it all out: Marriage is a lifelong sacramental covenant between one baptized man and woman, ordered toward the good of the spouses and toward procreation and education of offspring.

Now, what is the definition of the State?

~Sternhauser

Edited June 5, 2010 by Sternhauser

[Bennn]

Indifferentism has long been condemned by several Popes. We do not own ourselves, and we do no each live on a planet of our own. The more wealth one person has, the more another suffers from starvation. No one can sin without effecting another. If God is banished to rule only in the private atmosphere, anarchy will indeed rule on a sociological scale. I do not understand why Knight, in his first post, was given three minuses simply for condemning what the Church has always condemned, as heresy.

Euphoric lies, such as these, lay the foundation to communism.

+Pax Domini,
Ben

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Bennn' date='05 June 2010 - 05:46 PM' timestamp='1275777985' post='2124243']
Indifferentism has long been condemned by several Popes. We do not own ourselves, and we do no each live on a planet of our own. The more wealth one person has, the more another suffers from starvation. No one can sin without effecting another. If God is banished to rule only in the private atmosphere, anarchy will indeed rule on a sociological scale. I do not understand why Knight, in his first post, was given three minuses simply for condemning what the Church has always condemned, as heresy.

Euphoric lies, such as these, lay the foundation to communism.

+Pax Domini,
Ben
[/quote]

Nobody's espousing indifferentism. The video espoused peaceful interaction, not indifferentism. It doesn't say anything against religion. It said that ideas cannot be forced on people, which is in accord with the Church's teachings.

We do not own ourselves. I already made that concession about the video earlier. But if we do not own ourselves, neither do we own other people. Ownership implies being able to do with one's possessions as one chooses. I do not have the right to force you to surrender [i]your[/i] property. So how can we [i]vote[/i] to [i]give[/i] someone a right we do not have ourselves?

If no one votes for a terrestrial ruler, does that mean God will give us a terrestrial king? Because that's not what I read in 1 Samuel 8.

~Sternhauser

Edited June 5, 2010 by Sternhauser

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='05 June 2010 - 06:46 PM' timestamp='1275777962' post='2124242']
I asked for the definition of the State. You gave me its attributes.

"The matrimonial covenant, by which a man and a woman establish betweenthemselves a partnership of the whole of life, is by its nature ordered towardthe good of the spouses and the procreation and education of offspring; thiscovenant between baptized persons has been raised by Christ the Lord to thedignity of a sacrament."

That is a definition. It lays it all out: Marriage is a lifelong sacramental covenant between one baptized man and woman, ordered toward the good of the spouses and toward procreation and education of offspring.

Now, what is the definition of the State?

~Sternhauser
[/quote]

You asked for a description of a State and you got one. A definition describes the attributes of a person place or thing. You're just playing dumb. Anyone honest can look at what was provided and see that it is describing or giving a definition of the State.

Here's another

[quote]
According to scholastic philosophy, the authoritative direction of a people, requiring them to use certain prescribed means for realizing a predetermined plan for the common good. Essential to the notion of government are authority vested in certain designated persons; management of things pertaining to the common good; an official plan or overview of what needs to be done to promote the welfare of the society; laws that express the will of those in authority relative to the advancement of the public good; sanctions that may be imposed on those who do not observe the laws. (Etym. Latin gubernare, to direct, manage, conduct, govern, guide.)[/quote]

and another...
[quote]
Civil Authority is the moral power of command, supported (when need be) by physical coercion, which the State exercises over its members.[/quote]

and another...

[quote]I. AUTHORITY

1897 "Human society can be neither well-ordered nor prosperous unless it has some people invested with legitimate authority to preserve its institutions and to devote themselves as far as is necessary to work and care for the good of all."15

[b]By "authority" one [u]means[/u] the quality by virtue of which persons or institutions make laws and [u]give orders[/u] to men and expect obedience from them.[/b]

1898 Every human community needs an authority to govern it.16 The foundation of such authority lies in human nature. It is necessary for the unity of the state. Its role is to ensure as far as possible the common good of the society.

1899 The authority required by the moral order derives from God: "Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore he who resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment."17

1900 The duty of obedience requires all to give due honor to authority and to treat those who are charged to exercise it with respect, and, insofar as it is deserved, with gratitude and good-will.

Pope St. Clement of Rome provides the Church's most ancient prayer for political authorities:18 "Grant to them, Lord, health, peace, concord, and stability, so that they may exercise without offense the sovereignty that you have given them. Master, heavenly King of the ages, you give glory, honor, and power over the things of earth to the sons of men. Direct, Lord, their counsel, following what is pleasing and acceptable in your sight, so that by exercising with devotion and in peace and gentleness the power that you have given to them, they may find favor with you."19

1901 If authority belongs to the order established by God, "the choice of the political regime and the appointment of rulers are left to the free decision of the citizens."20

The diversity of political regimes is morally acceptable, provided they serve the legitimate good of the communities that adopt them. Regimes whose nature is contrary to the natural law, to the public order, and to the fundamental rights of persons cannot achieve the common good of the nations on which they have been imposed.

1902 Authority does not derive its moral legitimacy from itself. It must not behave in a despotic manner, but must act for the common good as a "moral force based on freedom and a sense of responsibility":21

A human law has the character of law to the extent that it accords with right reason, and thus derives from the eternal law. Insofar as it falls short of right reason it is said to be an unjust law, and thus has not so much the nature of law as of a kind of violence.22

1903 Authority is exercised legitimately only when it seeks the common good of the group concerned and if it employs morally licit means to attain it. If rulers were to enact unjust laws or take measures contrary to the moral order, such arrangements would not be binding in conscience. In such a case, "authority breaks down completely and results in shameful abuse."23

1904 "It is preferable that each power be balanced by other powers and by other spheres of responsibility which keep it within proper bounds. This is the principle of the 'rule of law,' in which the law is sovereign and not the arbitrary will of men."24 [/quote]

Edited June 5, 2010 by KnightofChrist

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Bennn' date='05 June 2010 - 06:46 PM' timestamp='1275777985' post='2124243']
Indifferentism has long been condemned by several Popes. We do not own ourselves, and we do no each live on a planet of our own. The more wealth one person has, the more another suffers from starvation. No one can sin without effecting another. If God is banished to rule only in the private atmosphere, anarchy will indeed rule on a sociological scale. I do not understand why Knight, in his first post, was given three minuses simply for condemning what the Church has always condemned, as heresy.

Euphoric lies, such as these, lay the foundation to communism.

+Pax Domini,
Ben
[/quote]

Individualism which is taught by the video, and at the heart of anarchy and its daughters is also a heresy because of its tendency to magnify individual liberty against external authority. And I don't understand why LivingStone received any negatives at all. But I fixed that...

Edited June 5, 2010 by KnightofChrist

[KnightofChrist]

[url="http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13liber.htm"]LIBERTAS PRAESTANTISSIMUM[/url]

ON THE NATURE OF HUMAN LIBERTY

ENCYCLICAL OF POPE LEO XIII JUNE 20, 1888

[ThePenciledOne]

[quote name='Bennn' date='05 June 2010 - 07:46 PM' timestamp='1275777985' post='2124243']
Indifferentism has long been condemned by several Popes. We do not own ourselves, and we do no each live on a planet of our own. The more wealth one person has, the more another suffers from starvation. No one can sin without effecting another. If God is banished to rule only in the private atmosphere, anarchy will indeed rule on a sociological scale. I do not understand why Knight, in his first post, was given three minuses simply for condemning what the Church has always condemned, as heresy.

Euphoric lies, such as these, lay the foundation to communism.

+Pax Domini,
Ben
[/quote]

Did you not watch the video or what?