Guy Ran Over A Goose

[Mercy me]

I don't see this as an animal rights discussion at all. We are stewards of the Earth. It mean that we look after all that is on the Earth and take only what we need. Killing for the sake of killing is not right on any level.

[sacredheartandbloodofjesus]

[quote name='Marie-Therese' date='03 June 2010 - 08:04 PM' timestamp='1275613442' post='2123421']
Are you actually serious?? You think that a sentient creature has no sensation in their body? How do you explain that animals have proprioception? (That means that you have to have some sense of feeling to be able to understand how to move your body in space.)

So, by your reasoning, if you kick a dog and it yelps, that yelp is not in any way related to the sensation of pain?? I am sorry, but if you believe this, then you are seriously mistaken.
[/quote]


Um if you read my post clearly, you will see that I acknowledge the reality that animals [b]feel pain [/b].

I mean that animals cannot acknowledge the pain they are experiencing, to them, pain is the feeling they get when there nervous system is reacting to a certain experience and they react in accordance with their purpose to survive. They cannot suffer as a Human Being can. When you kick a dog and it yelps, it cannot think "ow that really hurt, why did he kick me for no reason?" To kick a human being you are causing pain [b]and[/b] suffering to the individual, the person not only feels the pain but he is aware of it, acknowledges it and suffers because of his realization of it.

[sacredheartandbloodofjesus]

[quote name='sacredheartandbloodofjesus' date='03 June 2010 - 12:24 AM' timestamp='1275542693' post='2123060']
Maybe the guy was driving slow so that the goose would hurry up and cross the street and after it wouldnt the man figured "Hey, Im better off running this goose over than risking an accident with another car."

Animals do have a spirit because they are living but they are not capable of suffering. One must be 'aware' of pain to suffer, and animals are not concious beings. I believe that torturing animals is [b][u]only[/u][/b] wrong because its a perverted action of the individual. Meaning, its [b][u]only[/u][/b] wrong because the action is harming the individual who is doing the torture. The man who tortures animals is going to be harmed psychologically or he may harm someone else's psyche who sees his actions. In other words, he is torturing himself by torturing the animal and that is where I believe the worse sin is.
[/quote]

Sorry, replace these two [b]only's[/b] with two [b]mainly's[/b]

[sacredheartandbloodofjesus]

Yes, to torture animals is to abuse creation and thus it is a sin. But what makes this sin very harmful is not that the animal has to feel the pain but that the person doing the torture is harming himself psychologically and any others who witness the torture.

[sacredheartandbloodofjesus]

It appears that alot of people in this thread are jumping to conclusions, so Im going to repost what may have been missed in my first post.

-Maybe the guy was driving slow so that the goose would hurry up and cross the street and after it wouldnt, the man figured "Hey, Im better off running this goose over than risking an accident with another car."

We can all make mistakes, we should'nt automatically assume that he wanted to torture the goose.

[Ziggamafu]

Animals are of course aware of pain. A dog who is kicked for no reason by its owner will yelp and indeed wonder why it was kicked without apparent cause. It may even decide to snap at its owner. Animals are conscious. They are aware. They have the breath of life in them. They are above rocks and clouds. They even have, to various degrees, intellect, memory, and will; some even display language (dolphins), invention of tools (monkeys & ravens), the ability to learn a new language (gorillas), and mourning over the dead (elephants). Mere matter cannot be conscious. Consciousness of any sort requires an immaterial principle. What gives humans the status of dominion over the animals is that they were made in the image of God, and they do not have mere souls, but spirits. Their intellect, memory, and will are [i]transcendent[/i]. That is, they are aware of being aware, they reflect back upon their own reflection, and they have freedom to disobey instinct.

Animal abuse is wrong because it is wrong to show contempt for the breath of life, disrespect for one's position of dominion over the animals, and perhaps even carelessness toward the God who knows when every sparrow falls to the ground. And yes, since animals are aware of the pain they endure (even if not aware of their awareness and unable to rationalize or ascribe meaning to their pain), it also corrupts the moral fiber of those who deliberately inflict it without just cause.

[MithLuin]

Back to geese....

Geese will pick up a stick in their beak and chase other geese around with it.

They migrate thousands of miles and arrive at the correct locations, year after year.

They defend their young against predators.

Even with a tiny goose-sized brain, I think they can certainly experience pain and to some extent suffer from it.

While cruelty to an animal certainly damages the soul of the person who engages in such behavior (and may lead to worse things), this doesn't mean that that is the [i]only[/i] or even [i]most significant[/i] harm. The animal is harmed, and to ignore that would be...silly.

[Marie-Therese]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' date='04 June 2010 - 08:55 AM' timestamp='1275656128' post='2123587']
Animals are of course aware of pain. A dog who is kicked for no reason by its owner will yelp and indeed wonder why it was kicked without apparent cause. It may even decide to snap at its owner. Animals are conscious. They are aware. They have the breath of life in them. They are above rocks and clouds. They even have, to various degrees, intellect, memory, and will; some even display language (dolphins), invention of tools (monkeys & ravens), the ability to learn a new language (gorillas), and mourning over the dead (elephants). Mere matter cannot be conscious. Consciousness of any sort requires an immaterial principle. What gives humans the status of dominion over the animals is that they were made in the image of God, and they do not have mere souls, but spirits. Their intellect, memory, and will are [i]transcendent[/i]. That is, they are aware of being aware, they reflect back upon their own reflection, and they have freedom to disobey instinct.

Animal abuse is wrong because it is wrong to show contempt for the breath of life, disrespect for one's position of dominion over the animals, and perhaps even carelessness toward the God who knows when every sparrow falls to the ground. And yes, since animals are aware of the pain they endure (even if not aware of their awareness and unable to rationalize or ascribe meaning to their pain), it also corrupts the moral fiber of those who deliberately inflict it without just cause.
[/quote]


[quote name='MithLuin' date='04 June 2010 - 10:05 AM' timestamp='1275660358' post='2123603']
Back to geese....

Geese will pick up a stick in their beak and chase other geese around with it.

They migrate thousands of miles and arrive at the correct locations, year after year.

They defend their young against predators.

Even with a tiny goose-sized brain, I think they can certainly experience pain and to some extent suffer from it.

While cruelty to an animal certainly damages the soul of the person who engages in such behavior (and may lead to worse things), this doesn't mean that that is the [i]only[/i] or even [i]most significant[/i] harm. The animal is harmed, and to ignore that would be...silly.
[/quote]


THANK YOU.

[MIKolbe]

i am not sure if i feel more sorry for the goose because he got run over, or because of this thread in his honor.

either way... poor goose.

[Marie-Therese]

[quote name='MIkolbe' date='04 June 2010 - 03:20 PM' timestamp='1275679258' post='2123761']
i am not sure if i feel more sorry for the goose because he got run over, or because of this thread in his honor.

either way... poor goose.
[/quote]

ikr?

[ardillacid]

[quote name='MithLuin' date='04 June 2010 - 10:05 AM' timestamp='1275660358' post='2123603']


While cruelty to an animal certainly damages the soul of the person who engages in such behavior (and may lead to worse things), this doesn't mean that that is the [i]only[/i] or even [i]most significant[/i] harm. The animal is harmed, and to ignore that would be...silly.
[/quote]
Are you saying that the animal's suffering is more significant than someone's immortal soul?

[Paddington]

[quote name='notardillacid' date='04 June 2010 - 04:32 PM' timestamp='1275679931' post='2123770']
Are you saying that the animal's suffering is more significant than someone's immortal soul?
[/quote]

It's hard to tell from that, but just the other day, Mithluin told me over tea and cake that indeed she does care more about one goose than 1000's of immortal souls, and that this conviction is so fundamental to her that she can not remember a time in which she ever seriously doubted it, and that she takes enormous pride and pleasure in sharing the idea to people both familiar and strange, as it is not only a matter of extreme importance, but that the apathy and dissipation of our current age has further heightened the urgency of this topic.

[Jesus_lol]

[quote name='notardillacid' date='04 June 2010 - 12:32 PM' timestamp='1275679931' post='2123770']
Are you saying that the animal's suffering is more significant than someone's immortal soul?
[/quote]

if you hit a tree with an axe, it also dulls the axe. you paid money for that axe but i would say the cut and felled tree was a more significant result to the action.

Edited June 4, 2010 by Jesus_lol

[Hassan]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' date='04 June 2010 - 08:55 AM' timestamp='1275656128' post='2123587']
Animals are of course aware of pain. A dog who is kicked for no reason by its owner will yelp and indeed wonder why it was kicked without apparent cause. It may even decide to snap at its owner. Animals are conscious. They are aware. They have the breath of life in them. They are above rocks and clouds. They even have, to various degrees, intellect, memory, and will; some even display language (dolphins), invention of tools (monkeys & ravens), the ability to learn a new language (gorillas), and mourning over the dead (elephants). Mere matter cannot be conscious. Consciousness of any sort requires an immaterial principle. What gives humans the status of dominion over the animals is that they were made in the image of God, and they do not have mere souls, but spirits. Their intellect, memory, and will are [i]transcendent[/i]. That is, they are aware of being aware, they reflect back upon their own reflection, and they have freedom to disobey instinct.

Animal abuse is wrong because it is wrong to show contempt for the breath of life, disrespect for one's position of dominion over the animals, and perhaps even carelessness toward the God who knows when every sparrow falls to the ground. And yes, since animals are aware of the pain they endure (even if not aware of their awareness and unable to rationalize or ascribe meaning to their pain), it also corrupts the moral fiber of those who deliberately inflict it without just cause.
[/quote]


It is a big leap from saying that animals can register pain to saying that they are conscious.

Edited June 4, 2010 by Hassan

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' date='04 June 2010 - 04:30 PM' timestamp='1275687000' post='2123798']
if you hit a tree with an axe, it also dulls the axe. you paid money for that axe but i would say the cut and felled tree was a more significant result to the action.
[/quote]
Except an axe has no moral, eternal, or transcendent significance.