Guy Ran Over A Goose

[Mercy me]

I find it deeply disturbing that someone would deliberately run over the goose and I agree that he should be reported to the police. We do have an obligation to be stewards of the earth. God provides and we take what we need. That does not mean killing for the sake of killing. Killing innocent animals whether it be with a a car or by other means is a very clear sign of deeper trouble and intervention is called for.

[MithLuin]

[b]Zig[/b], what you are saying is not that the bird had 'rights', but that you had a responsibility towards it. Because of what the bird is, and because of who you are, standing by silently and watching it die did not seem to be the right thing to do. I'm not sure you really had the means to give it a quicker death, though.

The film crew who captured [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2ZW0EvMzSM]this footage[/url] for the BBC's Planet Earth had a similar conflict. It was difficult to just...watch. But at least that had nothing to do with intentional human cruelty.

[quote name='Lilllabettt' date='01 June 2010 - 01:36 PM' timestamp='1275410173' post='2122114']
Are you concurring with me? I concur with you. Dogs are not the same as people.

But I think the "save the pet" trend in entertainment media has a deeper significance. When the little dog made into the cellar in Twister, or into the utility closet in Independence Day, or out of the flooding container in 2012, the audience in the movie theater actually clapped and cheered. Despite the fact that humans had been sucked up, roasted, or drowned in those same scenes. I don't think its just that the masses have been so brainwashed by the tree hugging crowd that they really believe human life is less important than animal life.

Maybe it is a dog thing?[/quote]

Audiences also almost universally cheered when the ent-on-fire put itself out in the flood in the [i]Two Towers[/i]. ([url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTFP9QQzEL4&feature=related]scene[/url]) So it's not just a dog thing. I think that people are pretty excited by close calls, so that if a character that you have been introduced to previously is in danger, but makes it anyway...well, then you are happy.

Even if that character is a pet.

Why don't we care about the nameless people trapped in their cars being roasted alive in [i]Independence Day[/i]? Well...they are nameless, for one thing. And also...we know they are all goners as soon as the firestorm starts. The dog [i]might[/i] have died, but then lives. So, that's a positive.

This is also movie-logic, where people respond emotionally to what they see, knowing that it isn't real. Meaning...I'm pretty sure we'd react differently to a news report about a bunch of people dying but 'the dog lived.' I think those 'at least the dog lives' moments are added to movies to keep scenes from being too bleak. They give the audience an out, to not have to think about the dying people.

I do agree that people can miss the point, though. When I was in high school, my class went to the Holocaust Museum in DC. To help the experience be more 'real', they give you an ID of a real person to follow through. At each floor of the museum, you turn a page and learn more about their story. Anyway, one of the girls in my class got someone whose story involved her horse. The horse was killed in the course of the war.

She was upset that the horse died.

The museum was about the [i]12 million people who were killed[/i].

I think that's a clear example of missing the point. Not that it's okay to shoot horses, but that that pales in comparison to [i]killing the girl who owned the horse.[/i]

Edited June 2, 2010 by MithLuin

[ThePenciledOne]

[quote name='MithLuin' date='02 June 2010 - 12:55 AM' timestamp='1275450958' post='2122594']
The horse was killed in the course of the war.

She was upset that the horse died.

The museum was about the [i]12 million people who were killed[/i].

I think that's a clear example of missing the point. Not that it's okay to shoot horses, but that that pales in comparison to [i]killing the girl who owned the horse.[/i]
[/quote]

Well, as nothing bodily happens to us and happens to the other person its their problem and not ours right?

I mean, that's the mentality in today's society. We just try to look at other things, animals for example to care for, that way when something happens to a person we don't know, but we know it's still wrong and we do nothing we don't get a guilt trip. (but we still do anyway...well at least some of us).

[Sternhauser]

There's no doubt such a person is a sick puppy. I wouldn't associate with him. But calling the police? [i]Really? [/i]Did he violate the goose's rights? Was it a hit and run? Yes, many psychopaths start out killing animals. The logic isn't there for this course of action, however.

~Sternhauser

[ardillacid]

[quote name='Mercy me' date='01 June 2010 - 11:10 PM' timestamp='1275448222' post='2122559']
I find it deeply disturbing that someone would deliberately run over the goose and I agree that he should be reported to the police. We do have an obligation to be stewards of the earth. God provides and we take what we need. That does not mean killing for the sake of killing. Killing innocent animals whether it be with a a car or by other means is a very clear sign of deeper trouble and intervention is called for.
[/quote]
People deliberately kill pests all the time. Geese are pests. Have you ever killed a mouse? A rat? A rabbit?

[Ziggamafu]

[quote name='notardillacid' date='02 June 2010 - 02:55 AM' timestamp='1275461725' post='2122655']
People deliberately kill pests all the time. Geese are pests. Have you ever killed a mouse? A rat? A rabbit?
[/quote]

I have no problem with killing pests, "necessary" experimentation on animals, hunting, etc. I have a problem with not providing an animal with a clean death when you intend to kill it. I also have a problem with cruelty / torture of animals that you do not intend to kill. (Even insects; I remember when I was a kid, there was this other kid who would rip all the legs off a bug and then set its body down for awhile, just to watch. Then he would either burn the body or slowly chop it in half.)

I think it is wrong to treat animals as if they have no more value than robots or rocks. It is debasing to the work of God, and to the grace that is responsible for vivifying mere matter.

[MithLuin]

Agreed.

Geese can be terrible pests, and I see no harm in killing them, as needed.

But running animals over with your car? That's hardly the way to go about doing it. That's why I said [b]Zig[/b] didn't really haven't the means to put the goose down - hitting it with a car [i]again[/i] seems even more cruel!

[Ziggamafu]

[quote name='MithLuin' date='02 June 2010 - 05:51 PM' timestamp='1275515515' post='2122867']
Agreed.

Geese can be terrible pests, and I see no harm in killing them, as needed.

But running animals over with your car? That's hardly the way to go about doing it. That's why I said [b]Zig[/b] didn't really haven't the means to put the goose down - hitting it with a car [i]again[/i] seems even more cruel!
[/quote]


The guy CENTERED the goose, which is why it was in such horrific shape. In other words, it seems pretty clear that the person wanted the bird to suffer. I had thought about trying to run over it dead-on, but on second thought, Mith, you may be right about that not being enough to kill it. That actually makes me feel a lot better.

[Jesus_lol]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' date='02 June 2010 - 07:29 PM' timestamp='1275532197' post='2122984']
The guy CENTERED the goose, which is why it was in such horrific shape. In other words, it seems pretty clear that the person wanted the bird to suffer. I had thought about trying to run over it dead-on, but on second thought, Mith, you may be right about that not being enough to kill it. That actually makes me feel a lot better.
[/quote]

we used to have a bunch of ducks that lived down by our house(also some geese) but one day one of the ducks got ran over(they had an unfortunate habit of sleeping under trucks and not seeing them as any sort of threat) and it didnt die right away. it was pretty bad, and ducks are smaller than geese. good chance if you had run it over it wouldnt have died right away either.

[dauntingknight]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' date='01 June 2010 - 10:09 AM' timestamp='1275401390' post='2122045']
So I don't like geese. They poo on everything, hiss at you like snakes, and generally are a detriment to my enjoyment of any environment. Nevertheless, they are a conscious creature; they experience pain and suffering just like you or me, even though they lack the ability to reflect back upon the meaning of that suffering. Yada yada.

Anyway, this truck in front of me intentionally ran over a goose - somewhat slowly - in my apartment complex today. The goose was not killed and was still alive as I slowly drove past. I wanted to see if there was anything I could do for the creature but it looked too far gone. Honestly, I wanted to run it over again to kill it quickly but that's illegal and with my luck a cop would have pulled up right as I went for the mercy kill. So I drove past. And I've been feeling kind of bad about it since then. The goose was clearly dying a torturous and long-lasting death, while fighting to flop its blood-spurting body off the road.

I feel bad for animals because they cannot rationalize their pain or ascribe any meaning to it. They just feel it. Which seems, really, worse of a situation than that of us humans.
[/quote]
This comes up a lot when you hit a deer, wether it was avoidable or not.


[quote name='Paddington' date='01 June 2010 - 11:33 AM' timestamp='1275406416' post='2122088']
That is horrible.

Don't feel bad Zigga, you were conflicted.

I think next time you should go for the mercy killing and calling the cops. That person could be some kind of dangerous sociopath. I mean who the heck slowly runs over a goose in the morning?
[/quote]
The cops can NOT do anything about it but call the 'Humane Society'.
The reason why the cops can't do anything is because if they shot/killed the goose then they will have to file a report on discharging a firearm at an injured animal.

Best thing you can do is just stab/shoot the animal in the lungs(if it is obivously in great pain and is near death).
Believe it or not that is the most humane way to take an animal because it is a "quick, clean, kill".
Then after its dead bury it.

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' date='01 June 2010 - 11:41 AM' timestamp='1275406903' post='2122095']
Call me cold, but I'd call that natural selection. It's a goose; it can fly. It ought to know to get out of the way of predators, be them lions, guys with ray guns, or Suburbans. If it can't do that...darwinism.
[/quote]
"Survival of the fitess"

[quote name='Ziggamafu' date='02 June 2010 - 10:25 AM' timestamp='1275488739' post='2122706']
I have no problem with killing pests, "necessary" experimentation on animals, hunting, etc. I have a problem with not providing an animal with a clean death when you intend to kill it. I also have a problem with cruelty / torture of animals that you do not intend to kill. (Even insects; I remember when I was a kid, there was this other kid who would rip all the legs off a bug and then set its body down for awhile, just to watch. Then he would either burn the body or slowly chop it in half.)

I think it is wrong to treat animals as if they have no more value than robots or rocks. It is debasing to the work of God, and to the grace that is responsible for vivifying mere matter.
[/quote]
I know of a Monastery of Poor Clares who took care of the insects that were invading their building.
The Sisters response was that "They are very territoriy"

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='dauntingknight' date='02 June 2010 - 10:39 PM' timestamp='1275536388' post='2123001']

Best thing you can do is just stab/shoot the animal in the lungs(if it is obivously in great pain and is near death).
Believe it or not that is the most humane way to take an animal because it is a "quick, clean, kill".
Then after its dead bury it.

[/quote]
One time at summer camp, at the side of the road there was a deer who had been hit, and whoever had hit it stopped and cut its throat with a hunting knife. It was sad to see, but better die from a quick cut like that than by going into shock and shivering by the side of the road for God-knows how many hours.

[Marie-Therese]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' date='01 June 2010 - 11:41 AM' timestamp='1275406903' post='2122095']
Call me cold, but I'd call that natural selection. It's a goose; it can fly. It ought to know to get out of the way of predators, be them lions, guys with ray guns, or Suburbans. If it can't do that...darwinism.
[/quote]

If Darwinian natural selection was really valid, then human society as it currently exists would be extinct. There is nothing even remotely resembling survival of the fittest going on. Spend an hour at your local Wal Mart. My case rests.

In terms of the animals, it is true that animals have no rights in the proper sense. However, as Genesis recounts, God gave humans dominion over the animals, to which He had given the breath of life...He even allowed mankind to give the animals their names. While animals were to provide for the needs of people, in no wise can I see a circumstance where the willful abuse or torture of an animal could be warranted.

I, about a year ago, ran over a squirrel. To tell you that I was stricken would be putting it lightly. I hit the squirrel when he darted out in front of my car and I had no time to stop. When I hit him, I did not kill him, and I turned to see the poor creature dragging himself, wounded, off the road. I stopped the car and doubled back only to find that another car killed him before I could get back to him. I picked his tiny body up off the road and moved it to the roadside as lovingly as I could. Did that squirrel have a soul? No. Did I feel a responsibility, as God's highest creation, to care for the welfare of those creatures lesser than myself? Yes. The least I could do is give honour to the body of one of God's creatures who I had killed, even unwittingly.

In psychological and sociological terms, the desire to harm animals is often an indicator of a deeper disturbance of the psyche. Many serial killers often experimented with killing animals before moving on to human prey. I think the underlying issue isn't that the rights of the poor goose were violated...the bigger issue is that there are people who are cruel and heartless and who would rather kill a creature than slow down and allow it to pass. It is a symptom of the degradation of humankind's connection to God when the least among us, including animals, are treated with indifference or blatant abuse.

[sacredheartandbloodofjesus]

Maybe the guy was driving slow so that the goose would hurry up and cross the street and after it wouldnt the man figured "Hey, Im better off running this goose over than risking an accident with another car."

Animals do have a spirit because they are living but they are not capable of suffering. One must be 'aware' of pain to suffer, and animals are not concious beings. I believe that torturing animals is only wrong because its a perverted action of the individual. Meaning, its only wrong because the action is harming the individual who is doing the torture. The man who tortures animals is going to be harmed psychologically or he may harm someone else's psyche who sees his actions. In other words, he is torturing himself by torturing the animal and that is where I believe the worse sin is.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Marie-Therese' date='03 June 2010 - 12:46 AM' timestamp='1275540407' post='2123036']
If Darwinian natural selection was really valid, then human society as it currently exists would be extinct. There is nothing even remotely resembling survival of the fittest going on. Spend an hour at your local Wal Mart. My case rests.
[/quote]
I can't tell if you're joking or not. My humour capabilites go to sleep at 1:00.

[Selah]

I wonder what St. Francis would say in this situation...