Vincent Vega Posted June 1, 2010 Share Posted June 1, 2010 [quote name='Terra Firma' date='01 June 2010 - 12:31 PM' timestamp='1275409915' post='2122112'] Regardless, your statement implied that the goose deserved what it got. I don't believe that to be true -- what it got was unjust, and not even a dumb animal deserves injustice. [/quote] Perhaps that was your inference, but was not the implication. The implication was that he should have been able to avert the situation. It's similar to a clumsy electrician. He's working in an outlet and due to his own carelessness gets electrocuted. Did he deserve to die? No. Should he have been able to avoid the situation. Yes. That's my claim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luthien Posted June 1, 2010 Share Posted June 1, 2010 [quote name='USAirwaysIHS' date='01 June 2010 - 02:23 PM' timestamp='1275409383' post='2122110'] I didn't say that the guy was justified in killing the goose, just that the goose probably should have been able to get out of the way (per the o.p., the truck was travelling "slowly" and was implicated to have been in a parking lot). It might be slightly evolutionarily unfair to shoot wolves from a helicopter, but I'd say that getting away from large, slow-moving predators should be a basic evolutionary device for self-perpetuation in any species. None of what I've been saying has been trying to excuse the driver's actions, I'm just saying that the goose should have been able to avoid it. [/quote] You try and waddle at 15 MPH. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted June 1, 2010 Share Posted June 1, 2010 Justice is a term that applies only to rational beings, and so I would avoid using that word in connection with irrational animals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted June 1, 2010 Share Posted June 1, 2010 [quote name='Apotheoun' date='01 June 2010 - 01:56 PM' timestamp='1275411410' post='2122131'] Justice is a term that applies only to rational beings, and so I would avoid using that word in connection with irrational animals. [/quote] I think animals show far more rationality than many humans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted June 1, 2010 Share Posted June 1, 2010 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='01 June 2010 - 11:22 AM' timestamp='1275412953' post='2122156'] I think animals show far more rationality than many humans. [/quote] Human beings can act contrary to their nature, and such acts are called sins, but the Church teaches that sins do not alter human nature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePenciledOne Posted June 1, 2010 Share Posted June 1, 2010 [quote name='Lilllabettt' date='01 June 2010 - 01:36 PM' timestamp='1275410173' post='2122114'] Are you concurring with me? I concur with you. Dogs are not the same as people. But I think the "save the pet" trend in entertainment media has a deeper significance. When the little dog made into the cellar in Twister, or into the utility closet in Independence Day, or out of the flooding container in 2012, the audience in the movie theater actually clapped and cheered. Despite the fact that humans had been sucked up, roasted, or drowned in those same scenes. I don't think its just that the masses have been so brainwashed by the tree hugging crowd that they really believe human life is less important than animal life. [spoiler]In contrast: when Will Smith's dog dies in "I am Legend" ... people booed.[/spoiler] Maybe it is a dog thing? [/quote] Yes exactly. Though, I just think when we think of pets we end up treating them better then our fellow man. I mean how often do we take in a stray dog or cat, when we have homeless on our streets? Given this is an incredible reduction of a much larger issue and I am not calling people out, only pointing out something here. I like keeping things in perspective. And when Will Smith's dog did die, I was moved but not by the dog dying, but by the deep love that Will Smith had for his companion since it was the only other living being he had known and it was the only remaining attachment he had to his family that had since passed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesus_lol Posted June 1, 2010 Share Posted June 1, 2010 (edited) [quote name='ThePenciledOne' date='01 June 2010 - 12:08 PM' timestamp='1275419335' post='2122194'] I mean how often do we take in a stray dog or cat, when we have homeless on our streets? Given this is an incredible reduction of a much larger issue and I am not calling people out, only pointing out something here. I like keeping things in perspective. [/quote] well, for one i have significantly less issues with letting a cat sleep on my bed with me there, than a homeless guy. something ive learned living on a farm, is that you always have to take care of those that depend on you first, like penned in horses, because if you dont they will starve. Edited June 1, 2010 by Jesus_lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePenciledOne Posted June 1, 2010 Share Posted June 1, 2010 [quote name='Jesus_lol' date='01 June 2010 - 05:58 PM' timestamp='1275425881' post='2122267'] well, for one i have significantly less issues with letting a cat sleep on my bed with me there, than a homeless guy. [/quote] Exactly my point. [quote] something ive learned living on a farm, is that you always have to take care of those that depend on you first, like penned in horses, because if you dont they will starve. [/quote] Ok, but most don't depend on dogs, cats etc. to live. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Vega Posted June 1, 2010 Share Posted June 1, 2010 [quote name='Jesus_lol' date='01 June 2010 - 04:58 PM' timestamp='1275425881' post='2122267'] well, for one i have significantly less issues with letting a cat sleep on my bed with me there, than a homeless guy. [/quote] Well that sounds like a personal problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted June 1, 2010 Share Posted June 1, 2010 [quote name='USAirwaysIHS' date='01 June 2010 - 05:10 PM' timestamp='1275430204' post='2122326'] Well that sounds like a personal problem. [/quote] Perhaps he should take a break from posting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesus_lol Posted June 1, 2010 Share Posted June 1, 2010 [quote name='ThePenciledOne' date='01 June 2010 - 02:06 PM' timestamp='1275426412' post='2122278'] Exactly my point. Ok, but most don't depend on dogs, cats etc. to live. [/quote] sorry, i meant that the other way. the dogs, cats, etc depend on you to live not the other way around. it is a good measure of a person, how they treat both animals and humans that are "below" them on the social pecking order. a guy who is nice to you but likes to run over squirrels or yell at waitresses is not a good person. [quote name='USAirwaysIHS' date='01 June 2010 - 03:10 PM' timestamp='1275430204' post='2122326'] Well that sounds like a personal problem. [/quote] [quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='01 June 2010 - 03:24 PM' timestamp='1275431098' post='2122335'] Perhaps he should take a break from posting. [/quote] maybe i need therapy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ardillacid Posted June 1, 2010 Share Posted June 1, 2010 [quote name='Jesus_lol' date='01 June 2010 - 07:15 PM' timestamp='1275434150' post='2122354'] a guy who is nice to you but likes to run over squirrels is not a good person. [/quote] werd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ziggamafu Posted June 2, 2010 Author Share Posted June 2, 2010 I was most troubled by the obvious pain of the the bird. The image of its twitching, out-spread wings and its writhing, blood-spurting neck is still fresh in my mind. It would have been much better if it weren't so obviously conscious, with its feet vainly trying to propel its massive, convulsing body off of the road. I do not believe that animals have rights in and of themselves, for they lack a spirit. But I am willing to suggest that animals have rights by virtue of [i]our [/i]recognition of their conscious capacity for pain. They are more than mere objects. I am of the theological/philosophical persuasion that animals have souls, since no mere matter can be conscious. Animals lack spirits - that is, a transcendent intellect, memory, and will - but they are more than mere physicality and, since there are higher beings present to acknowledge their capacity for conscious pain, I think they have a right to not endure deliberate torture at a human's hands. They are more than the mere artwork of God; I believe that they are vivified by God's grace, albeit not vivified in God's image, and therefore deserving of greater care than other things. So I feel that I had, in a sense, an obligation to kill the bird as an act of mercy that the animal could "rightfully" enjoy by my hand, even though oblivious to the meaning and rationale behind the act, even though vainly attempting to flee my tire. Again, not a right that the animal has in and of itself, but a "right" by virtue of [i]my being in its presence. [/i]Does that make sense or am I off my rocker? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePenciledOne Posted June 2, 2010 Share Posted June 2, 2010 [quote name='Jesus_lol' date='01 June 2010 - 08:15 PM' timestamp='1275434150' post='2122354'] sorry, i meant that the other way. the dogs, cats, etc depend on you to live not the other way around. it is a good measure of a person, how they treat both animals and humans that are "below" them on the social pecking order. a guy who is nice to you but likes to run over squirrels or yell at waitresses is not a good person. [/quote] That is true, when someone maliciously killing animals or torturing them I would ask them to seek mental help. I would not go as far as to call them not a good person, because using that line of logic we can write off plenty of people that do 'bad' things and call them 'not good' people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catholic Fox Posted June 2, 2010 Share Posted June 2, 2010 (edited) He killed Goose! [img]http://www.newbelgium.com/files/shared/goose.jpg[/img] Edited June 2, 2010 by Catholic Fox Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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