Convincing Someone That Euthanasia Is Wrong

[JustJump]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' date='29 May 2010 - 09:59 AM' timestamp='1275141578' post='2120154']
But if youth is your hope, when it's tapped out, then as far as you're concerned you're dead already.
[/quote]

[img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/clap.gif[/img] well said

[rhetoricfemme]

[quote name='Archaeology cat' date='29 May 2010 - 02:02 AM' timestamp='1275112934' post='2120046']
The only case I can think of where it could possibly be permissible to disconnect a feeding tube is when the patient cannot physically tolerate food even in that form. In that case, it would be more merciful to withhold the food, since the patient can't have it, and the intent is not to hasten death, but to keep the patient as comfortable as possible. I think this was the case with my paternal grandfather, as he was dying of advanced pancreatic cancer that had spread throughout his other organs (I could be wrong, though, since I was just 13 at the time). A medical professional can tell me whether that's a possibility in this case or not. I am fairly certain that no measures were taken to hasten his death (I know he wouldn't have approved any measures to hasten death, nor would my grandmother, so if any such measures were taken, it was likely without their knowledge), and I well remember his last conscious day, when my cousin sang hymns and other songs to him and my grandfather squeezed my grandmother's hand. Yes, he was going to die anyway, but none of us sought to hasten his death. Had euthanasia been considered, he likely would have been euthanised 20 years before he actually died, after his first heart attack, where he was bedridden for a year afterwards.

I compare that with my other grandfather, who had a stroke. It is likely that he would have lived a few more years, though he would have been disabled (not sure to what extent). Instead of facing that, he chose to refuse to eat or have a feeding tube. My step-grandmother tried to convince him otherwise, but he wouldn't budge; when he could no longer make a decision, his medical power-of-attorney also wouldn't budge on it. I know they didn't truly grasp how it was not a dignified death with him dying that way. I appreciate prayers for the repose of my grandparents' souls.
[/quote]
I'll definitely be praying for your grandparents.

The case where your one grandfather was surrounded by family, and he squeeze your grandmother's hand sounds a lot like when my father passed away. He had cancer and was in the hospital for quite some time, and we knew when he only had a few days left, but we weren't going to hasten anything. We let him take his time, and my mother, my sisters and myself all took turns being with him, and he was never alone. His own mother, who lived states away and was very disabled herself, had my aunt rush her to my father's bedside, and though he hadn't been conscious for days at this point, he waited until the people who loved him were all there before he passed on. He waited for his mother to come. He waited while we each whispered something in his ear and said goodbye, and it was only after all of this that he passed on.

Physically, he had absolutely no reason to hang on for as long as he did, and his would have been the type of case where so many people would havee given up and signed off long ago.

I think that not only does euthanasia let us take control where only God should have control, but it also robs us of those last precious and delicate moments together. Time spent together is not wasted, and not only did we have this time with our father/grandfather/husband/son, but the rest of our family bonded in a unique way and now knows what lengths we'll go to for each other.

I also think people are just afraid of learning about themselves and mortality.

[quote name='Bennn' date='29 May 2010 - 08:53 AM' timestamp='1275137598' post='2120112']
Euthanasia is false charity. We're no dogs that you can put down when they get sick. We're human beings with eternal souls and no man can decide that God has no further plans with us.

+Pax Domini,
Ben
[/quote]
Definitely. Amen!

[tinytherese]

I'm astounded when people claim that life isn't worth living if they're in a wheelchair, paralyzed, very sick, or whatever. I don't want to sound mean, but quite frankly it sounds like a very spoiled/childish mentality. I mean sheesh, they're lives have to be practicallly perfect or at least close to that? With that logic, I wonder how they even lived to be the age that they're even at, because even the happiest lives on earth are not perfect.

Oh and as I wrote that first sentence, it reminded me of Archbishop Sheen's show "Life is Worth Living." I remember the priest at our parish telling us about a Protestant woman who invalidly married a Catholic outside of the Church and ended up watching his show. She then wanted to convert to Catholicism and her apathetic Catholic husband even went through a conversion. They got married in the Church and ended up having two sons, one of which was our pastor!

[CatherineM]

[quote name='tinytherese' date='29 May 2010 - 04:46 PM' timestamp='1275169597' post='2120331']
I'm astounded when people claim that life isn't worth living if they're in a wheelchair, paralyzed, very sick, or whatever. I don't want to sound mean, but quite frankly it sounds like a very spoiled/childish mentality. I mean sheesh, they're lives have to be practicallly perfect or at least close to that? With that logic, I wonder how they even lived to be the age that they're even at, because even the happiest lives on earth are not perfect.

Oh and as I wrote that first sentence, it reminded me of Archbishop Sheen's show "Life is Worth Living." I remember the priest at our parish telling us about a Protestant woman who invalidly married a Catholic outside of the Church and ended up watching his show. She then wanted to convert to Catholicism and her apathetic Catholic husband even went through a conversion. They got married in the Church and ended up having two sons, one of which was our pastor!
[/quote]
Christopher Reeves once said that when he first realized that he was permanently disabled, he wanted to die. He even asked his wife to help him. Later, he was glad he didn't. I like the quote that suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem. Well, when you have a permanent problem, like I do, it's the loss of hope that is temporary.

[mommas_boy]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' date='29 May 2010 - 09:59 AM' timestamp='1275141578' post='2120154']
Most people under palliative care are probably trying to get onto hospice care, which -- good or bad -- is fully paid for by the U.S. taxpayer. But it takes three, four, five months to actually start receiving the benefits, so you could literally die waiting. (I work in Medicare Operations for an insurance company, so this stuff comes up.)
[/quote]

Scary, but thanks for the info. While I don't agree with it, I could certainly see where that gap could lead to a desire for euthanasia.

[Lilllabettt]

[quote name='tinytherese' date='29 May 2010 - 06:46 PM' timestamp='1275169597' post='2120331']
I'm astounded when people claim that life isn't worth living if they're in a wheelchair, paralyzed, very sick, or whatever. I don't want to sound mean, but quite frankly it sounds like a very spoiled/childish mentality. I mean sheesh, they're lives have to be practicallly perfect or at least close to that?
[/quote]


Well, I understand how people can think that way, and I don't think its childish or selfish. Physical pain can be so relentless, so intense that there really is no distraction possible. Its different too, if its a chronic thing as opposed to a cold. You can't comfort yourself and say, I'll be better soon. No one can comfort you and say, "it'll be alright." Because it won't, the pain will only get worse.

So, I understand. Certainly in my experience ... I was brave for a few months, but after that? I admit it, I would have liked to die; now I feel better and am happy to be alive. But if I'd still be in that kind of pain, well, I wouldn't have wanted to go on living. I like to think I would have done it for the love of God. But I would have begged Him to take me. See, looking on it from the outside is different. In the midst of it, there doesn't seem to be much point. I guess thats where trust comes in.

[i]"Watch carefully, Mother, when you will have persons a prey to violent pains; don't leave near them any medicines that are poisonous. I assure you, it needs only a second when one suffers intensely to lose one's reason. Then one could easily poison oneself. "[/i]
~ St. Therese, speaking to her nurse during her final illness

Edited May 30, 2010 by Lilllabettt

[MissScripture]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' date='29 May 2010 - 09:59 AM' timestamp='1275141578' post='2120154']
Most people under palliative care are probably trying to get onto hospice care, which -- good or bad -- is fully paid for by the U.S. taxpayer. But it takes three, four, five months to actually start receiving the benefits, so you could literally die waiting. (I work in Medicare Operations for an insurance company, so this stuff comes up.)
[/quote]
I'm a little confused by this part, because hospice is palliative care...

[quote name='tinytherese' date='29 May 2010 - 05:46 PM' timestamp='1275169597' post='2120331']
I'm astounded when people claim that life isn't worth living if they're in a wheelchair, paralyzed, very sick, or whatever. I don't want to sound mean, but quite frankly it sounds like a very spoiled/childish mentality. I mean sheesh, they're lives have to be practicallly perfect or at least close to that? With that logic, I wonder how they even lived to be the age that they're even at, because even the happiest lives on earth are not perfect.

Oh and as I wrote that first sentence, it reminded me of Archbishop Sheen's show "Life is Worth Living." I remember the priest at our parish telling us about a Protestant woman who invalidly married a Catholic outside of the Church and ended up watching his show. She then wanted to convert to Catholicism and her apathetic Catholic husband even went through a conversion. They got married in the Church and ended up having two sons, one of which was our pastor!
[/quote]
If you're talking about how someone can decide for someone else that their life isn't worth living, then no, I don't understand that, either, and I would feel very nervous around such people if I were disabled, because they apparently think of a person with a disability as less of a person or something. If it is the person who is sick or disabled, it isn't hard to understand how they can think that when you've worked in a hospital. They are sick and miserable, and for some, there isn't a light at the end of the tunnel where they can even HOPE to feel better. When all you can do is lay in bed for weeks, it's easy to get depressed, and hard to think positively! When people cannot touch you except with gloved hands, because of how contagious you are, it's not hard to see how someone could become depressed, and think they'd be better off dead. It's not a healthy thought, but it's a reality. And that's why it's good to have psychiatrists around, to help these people. At the same time, it's okay if someone is at peace with the possibility of dying, just so they are not actively trying to achieve death.

[tinytherese]

I've struggled with depression myself and know that counseling and having supportive loved ones around can really help. Perhaps these can really make a difference for someone who is disabled. Sorry for sounding uncharitable before. I really should have known better considering my situation.

[Winchester]

Removing extraordinary measures is not euthanasia. Providing palliative care in such instances is probably morally obligatory.

[Sternhauser]

Here's a reason in itself. A beautiful example of stubborn love. The Polish railway worker who was in a "persistent vegetative state" and woke up after 19 years. Went into a coma under the Soviets, and woke up to find food on the shelves in grocery stores.

[url="http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/06/04/world/main2881062.shtml"]http://www.cbsnews.c...in2881062.shtml[/url]

~Sternhauser

Edited May 30, 2010 by Sternhauser

[MissScripture]

[quote name='tinytherese' date='30 May 2010 - 03:36 AM' timestamp='1275204994' post='2120611']
I've struggled with depression myself and know that counseling and having supportive loved ones around can really help. Perhaps these can really make a difference for someone who is disabled. Sorry for sounding uncharitable before. I really should have known better considering my situation.
[/quote]
I know you didn't mean it to come out that way. I just think it's important for people to remember that when you're really sick for a long time, it's going to be hard to be all sunshine and smiles! Also, after a major event causing a long lasting disability (i.e. spinal cord injury, stroke, traumatic brain injury, etc) it's normal for a person to be depressed, but it's still something that needs to be taken care of.


[quote name='Winchester' date='30 May 2010 - 09:16 AM' timestamp='1275225397' post='2120628']
Removing extraordinary measures is not euthanasia. Providing palliative care in such instances is probably morally obligatory.
[/quote]
I would definitely agree!