Marian Devotion

[Damiano]

*["See John 2:5 [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif[/img]..."]

***Your citation of John 2:5 does not make your argument at all and spotlights your ignorance of the Scriptures. By citing this particular scripture you are alleging that Jesus is giving a SPECIAL position to His mother in relation to other believers. The Scriptures themselves prove otherwise...to wit: "While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, His mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to Him. Someone told Him, 'Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.' He replied to him, 'Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?' Pointing to His disciples, He said, 'Here are my mother and my brothers. For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother'" [Matthew 12:46-50].

BTW...Mary is never mentioned in the Bible after the first chapter of Acts and there is NO SCRIPTURAL SUPPORT for the BULK of the Catholic doctrines on Mary. Mary is dead and buried in the bowels of the earth from whence she came...and will be resurrected with all other believers at His glorious Second Coming. Trusting in her for salvation is IDOLATRY for by doing so you make her a god...for ONLY God can be our Saviour.


*["...and by your flawed argument, CHRIST's command to go forth and make disciples OF all nations can'T possibly draw the unsaVed sinner to Jesus."]

***Again you show your incredible IGNORANCE of the Scriptures and deliberate DISTORTION of them. Jesus did NOT command us "...to go forth and make disciples OF all nations..." THIS is what He said: "Go ye therefore, and TEACH all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: TEACHING them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen." [Matthew 28:19-20]. His command is to TEACH...TEACH...TEACH...TEACH!!! ONLY GOD the FATHER can DRAW sinners to Christ: "No man can come to ME, except the FATHER which hath sent Me DRAW HIM and I WILL raise him up at the last day" [John 6:44]...again "And he said, 'Therefore said I unto you, that NO MAN can come unto me, except it were GIVEN unto him OF MY FATHER'" [John 6:65].

BOTTOM LINE: The textural proof that Jesus commanded us to TEACH "whatsoever I have commanded you" [Matthew 28:19-20] is verified by our Lord: "It is written in the prophets. And they shall be all TAUGHT of God. Every man therefore that hath HEARD, and hath LEARNED of the Father, COMETH UNTO ME" [John 6:65]. When a person is drawn to Christ BY THE FATHER he will become a true DISCIPLE of Christ.


*["YOUR argument sounds patheticaLLy and positively calvinist.. [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/sad.gif[/img]"]

***You are mistaken. My beliefs are BIBLICAL beliefs...unlike yours. Most of your beliefs have NO support in Scripture and are in DIRECT OPPOSITION to them.

Although I don't adhere to all of Calvin's doctrines...many of the things he says are biblical and he was a brother in Christ Jesus. I cannot and will not say the same for you. You do not worship the Jesus of the Scriptures. You worship the "jesus" of the Catholic Church---which is "another jesus."

Damiano

[MIKolbe]

tl;dr

[Selah]

What Jason said.

You muggle hippie

[Damiano]

[quote name='kafka' date='04 June 2010 - 08:07 AM' timestamp='1275664050' post='2123630']
Jesus is the center, apex, culmination of the Hail Mary prayer. Most of the Hail Mary is taken directly from Sacred Scripture.

Hail Mary,
Full of grace, the Lord is with thee, blessed art thou among woman (Luke 1:28),
And blessed is the fruit of thy womb: (Luke 1:28 & 1:42)
Jesus!
Holy Mary,
Mother of God (Luke 1:48, 'so that the mother of my Lord would come to me?')
Pray for us sinners,
Now and at the hour of our death. Amen.

Both the Angel and the Jewish woman (Saint Elizabeth) praise her. And we should too.
[/quote]

***You will NEVER hear a disparaging remark from me about the Virgin Mary of the Scriptures for she was a godly woman and God's vessal pertaining to the Incarnation of His dear Son Jesus---the ONLY God and Saviour of the world. What I REJECT are the attributes of DEITY applied to her by the Church of Rome...the BULK of which are NOT substantiated by Holy Writ (the ONLY truth inspired of God) and in DIRECT OPPOSITION to them.

Damiano

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Damiano' date='04 June 2010 - 06:42 PM' timestamp='1275694960' post='2123854']
***You will NEVER hear a disparaging remark from me about the Virgin Mary of the Scriptures for she was a godly woman and God's vessal pertaining to the Incarnation of His dear Son Jesus---the ONLY God and Saviour of the world. What I REJECT are the attributes of DEITY applied to her by the Church of Rome...the BULK of which are NOT substantiated by Holy Writ (the ONLY truth inspired of God) and in DIRECT OPPOSITION to them.

Damiano
[/quote]

Find and quote accurately an authoritative document from a pope or ecumenical council that states that the blessed Virgin is God.
You have 5 seconds.

Edited June 4, 2010 by Resurrexi

[Selah]

Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee.

Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.

Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen.















































































































































































































































I'm not stirring the pot. Honest

[Damiano]

*["The problem with interpreting Scripture is that one must take into account all three pillars of the Faith: Sacred Tradition, Sacred Scripture and Sacred Magisterium..."]

***As a Christian I am faced with a most important choice...in whom will I trust my eternal destiny? Will it be the teachings and traditions of men OR the Word of God? To me the decision is a critical one because of the many Scriptural warnings concerning DECEPTION. The Apostle Paul wrote the following: "...savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them. So be on your guard! Remember that for three years I never stopped warning each of you night and day with tears" [Acts 20:29-31]. Regarding the traditions of men, he wrote, "See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends ON HUMAN TRADITION and the basic principles of this world RATHER THAN ON CHRIST." Jesus strongly rebuked the Jewish religious leaders of his day for NULLIFYING the Word of God with their tradition. He said, "They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by MEN. You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the TRADITIONS OF MEN. And he said to them: 'You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your OWN TRADITIONS...Thus you NULLIFY THE WORD OF GOD BY YOUR TRADITION that you have handed down" [Mark 7:7-13].

For hundreds of years the religious leaders of your church have been NULLIFYING the Word of God with their own traditions. These traditions do one of three things. They either: (1)directly oppose the Word of God; (2)distort the Word of God; or (3)are not supported by the Word of God. Nevertheless, in the Catholic Church "both Scripture and Tradition must be accepted and honored with equal sentiments of devotion and reverence" [Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 82].

It is impossible to believe both the Word of God and the teachings and traditions of the Catholic Church. God has revealed His truth through His written Word...Not the traditions of man. The Scriptures alone reveal the plan of salvation and the ASSURANCE of eternal life: "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may KNOW that ye HAVE eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God" [1 John 5:13].


*["...Mary's sinlessness is a deed wrought by God..."]

***This is an outright LIE. It violates Scripture which says that only Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God is SINLESS...therefore the doctrine of the Mary's sinlessness is a LIE of the DEVIL. Too, you and your kind are the "wolves in sheep's clothing" of whom Paul was writing about in [Acts 20:29-31].


Damiano

[Nihil Obstat]

[img]http://img1.photographersdirect.com/img/12049/wm/pd219803.jpg[/img]

[Seven77]

[quote name='Damiano' date='04 June 2010 - 11:23 AM' timestamp='1275661404' post='2123606']
*["The 'truth' in your argument is that latria worship is due only to the Lord..."]

***Your church...without any warrant whatever from Scripture, technically divides worship into three kinds: (1)LATRIA, the supreme worship, given to God alone; (2)DULIA, a secondary kind of veneration given to saints and angels; and (3)HYPERDULIA, a higher kind of veneration given to the Virgin Mary. The theory, however, is useless in practice, for the average worshipper is not able to make the distinctions, nor does he even know that such distinctions exist. The subtleties of definition only confuse the issue...for who can balance his feelings so nicely as to give God, the Virgin, and the saints their due proportion? I must insist that any religious worship, whether inward or outward, consisting of prayer, or praise, and expressed by outward homage such as bowing, kneeling, or prostration, is properly termed worship and belongs to God ALONE.

*["...As de Montfort says, it is satanic to say that because latria belongs to God alone we may not offer Our Lady hyperdulia..."]

***What de Monfort says is of no consequence. His statements are not inspired as are the Scriptures and are only his opinions and speculations---not supported by the Word of God...and, as such, have no credibility for the Christian.

*["...Man should offer all graces to Our Lady, who can keep them and distribute them where she sees they are most needed..."]

***Mary was a born SINNER as was the ENTIRETY of the human race: "For ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" [Romans 3:23]...and again "As it is written, there is NONE righteous, no NOT ONE: There is NONE that understandeth, there is NONE that seeketh after God" [Romans 3:10-11]. ONLY the Lord Jesus Christ was born WITHOUT sin: "For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet WITHOUT SIN" [Hebrews 4:15]. Now compare what the Scriptures say about Mary---who was NOT sinless and ACKNOWLEDGED her SINFULNESS and NEED of a SAVIOUR: "And Mary said, 'My soul doth magnify the Lord, and my spirit hath rejoiced in God MY SAVIOUR. For he hath regarded the LOW ESTATE of his handmaiden (i.e., bondservant): for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. For he that is mighty hath done great things; and holy is his name" [Luke 1:46-49]. NOTE...ONLY sinners NEED a SAVIOUR! If Mary rejoiced in God her SAVIOUR [Luke 1:47]...she was a SINNER and, as such, is NOT a dispenser of ANY graces.

*["...Because Our Lady was blessed to be perfect..."]

***Again...Mary was NOT perfect nor does the Bible sustain your claim that she was. If she was perfect she would not need a Saviour...and she says that she did have a Saviour [Luke 1:47].

*["...and because She is the Mediatrix of all Graces..."]

***Sinners are NOT mediators of graces. Only Jesus Christ is the Mediator between God and man: "For there is one God, and ONE MEDIATOR between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" [1 Timothy 2:5]. Mary cannot act as our priest or mediator because she is NOT sinless and, as such, is NOT qualified to be offered as a sacrifice (which God requires to expiate our sins). Only a priest with a true sacrifice can serve as mediator between God and men. Christ ALONE has a true sacrifice, and He ALONE can act as our priest/mediator.

*["...She will see that none who turn to Her suffer final damnation. If we offer Her everything She will do nothing but lead us to Christ."]

***You are mistaken. Only the Father can draw the unsaved sinner to His dear Son Jesus: "No man can come to me, except the FATHER which hath sent me DRAW him: and I will raise him up at the last day" [John 6:44]. It is the FATHER who draws the sinner to Christ---NOT Mary!

*["...Your lie is that we offer Her latria; your lie is that we make Her God; your lie is that She has will apart from God's own. If this were the case we would be idolaters, not Christians..."]

***I did not make the accusation that you are idolaters...BUT let's see if you QUALIFY for that accusation. Compare the following ATTRIBUTES of Jesus Christ with the ATTRIBUTES the Catholic Church gives to Mary:

(A)THE LORD JESUS CHRIST
-Conceived of the Holy Spirit
-The Son of God
-Born without sin
-Committed no sin
-Suffered on Calvary's cross
-Bodily Ascended into glory
-King of Heaven
-Prince of Peace
-Source of Grace
-Redeemer
-Mediator
-Advocate
-Second Adam

(B)THE CATHOLIC VERSION OF MARY
-Immaculately Conceived
-The Mother of God
-
-Suffered at Calvary's cross
-Bodily Assumed into glory
-Queen of Heaven
-Queen of Peace
-Channel of all grace
-Co-redeemer
-Mediatrix
-Advocate
-Second Eve

The ATTRIBUTES that your Church makes for Jesus Christ are ATTRIBUTED to Mary as well!!!! In point of fact, her attributes are GREATER since she is the "Channel of ALL graces" while Jesus is just a "source of grace"...(i.e., a distant second if you please). Mary then has ALL the attributes of God according to the titles and claims made for her by the Catholic Church inspite of their denials to the contrary.

I submit that your church does indeed offer her LATRIA and that you regard her as the MOTHER GODDESS OF HEAVEN...and you do qualify as an IDOLATER.

*["She wills only what God wills. To hold Her in highest esteem for Her earthly and heavenly perfection is just and in accord with the will of God; for how can it be idolatry to honor that which God honors? God offered Her to man because He wished to show His own wonders and perfections, His own mercy and His thirst for souls. To diminish the Divine achievements in Our Lady is to diminish God's own work in the world. Mary my Mother is nothing but pure love and mercy, for it is these virtues that God wished to show through Her. Offer yourself daily to Her and She will wrap you in Her mantle and present you to God the Most High.
Again, everything good in Her is good because it is Divine. To detract from this is to attack God Himself.

Sancta Maria, spes nostra, ora pro nobis!"]

***Your "god" is not the Tri-une God of the Scriptures...it is the "Quartet-god" of the Idolaters. NOTHING you have said about your goddess is supported in the Word of God...and, as such, is a lie.

damiano
[/quote]


You do not sound like a Biblical Christian to me. And you're confused---nobody here applies Divine attributes to Mary. You're raving like you know something---you run the risk of offending Christ and pleasing satan with your pride and insolence. Watch your step.

"Let us reason together." Attributes applied to Mary by the Catholic Church are Biblical AND they glorify Christ:


Immaculately Conceived (Conceived without sin)--Born without sin--Committed no sin: Second Eve:

Gen. 3:14-16

The Woman is at odds (enmity) with the serpent & serpent's offspring (sin) just as her Seed (her Son) is at odds with the serpent & serpent's offspring. Is the Seed Christ? Then the Woman is Mary. From this passage: Mary has nothing to do with sin.

God created Adam and Eve w/o sin. They failed. If the Second Adam was conceived w/o sin in his mother's womb (Gal. 4:4), the Second Eve, his mother, also was conceived w/o sin. Would you dare suggest God would let His Son dwell for 9 months in a sullied tabernacle? What would that say about God? The fact is this: God saved Mary from sin in advance. Could he? Yes. Would he (If you could make your own mother, wouldn't you make her perfect?)? Yes. Therefore, he did.

The original sin "took" when Adam ate the fruit--Eve played a subordinate role. The restoration happened when the Second Adam went to the cross and rose from the dead–-the Second Eve played a subordinate role, giving birth to death Jesus and continually saying yes to God even to the point of the cross. The prophecy of Simeon in Luke Chapter 2 occurred at the cross--her heart was pierced through when her Son's heart was pierced. She went through pain while watching her Son die a horrendous death. Her subordinate role as a Second Eve is what is meant by the term Co-Redemptrix.

An Angel of darkness appeared to a sinless Virgin who said no to God… an angel of light appeared to a sinless Virgin who said yes to God--and thus became the mother of all live in Christ (Revelation Chapter 12).

Channels are not sources. Mary is the channel through which all grace flows because the source of all grace---Jesus flowed from her.

When the Church says that Mary was assumed in Heaven, this was alluded to in Revelation 12. Who took her enter heaven? Her Son. Why? Because of the goodness of God!

Why is she called Queen of Heaven? Because her son is the King of course! Read Second Kings and Chronicles–the Davidic King always honors his mother with the position of Queen mother.

Finally, can Saints who have gone before us pray for us? Yes they can--if people here on Earth can pray for one another, they can also do so from heaven... for death does not separate us from the love of Christ (Rom. 8) whose mediation makes intercessory prayer possible (1 Tim. 2).

Blessed be God forever for giving us the Blessed Mother of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Edited June 5, 2010 by Seven77

[Selah]

Damiano,

I have a leopard slug, okay? Your argument is invalid.

[Damiano]

*["Find and quote accurately an authoritative document from a pope or ecumenical council that states that the blessed Virgin is God. You have 5 seconds."]

***How nice of you to ask. I have in my formerly nicotine-stained hands the following quotations taken from the book, THE GLORIES OF MARY...which was written by Bishop Alphonse de Liguori, one of the greatest devotional writers of the Roman Catholic Church, and the Word of God taken from the Douay Version which was approved by the late James Cardinal Gibbons, Archbishop of Baltimore. The Editor's notice says, "Everything that out saint has written is, as it were, a summary of Catholic tradition on the subject that it treats; it is not an individual author; it is, so to speak, the CHURCH HERSELF THAT SPEAKS TO US by the voice of her prophets, her apostles, her pontiffs, her saints, her fathers, her doctors of all nations and ages. No other book appears to be more worthy of recommendation in this respect than THE GLORIES OF MARY.'" (1931 edition; Redemptorist Fathers, Brooklyn).

Note the following deadly parallel:
(A)Mary is Given The Place Belonging To Christ

The Catholic Church says: "And she is truly a MEDIATRESS of peace between sinners and God. Sinners receive pardon...by Mary alone" (pp. 82, 83). "Mary is our life...Mary in obtaining this grace for sinners by her intercession, thus restores them to life" (p. 80). "He fails and is LOST who has not recourse to Mary" (p.94).

The Word of God says: "For there is one God, and ONE Mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus" [1 Timothy 2:5]. "Jesus saith to him: I am the Way, and the truth, and the life. No man cometh to the Father, but by me" [John 14:6]. "Christ...is our life" [Colossians 3:4].

(B)Mary Is Glorified More Than Christ

The Catholic Church says: "The Holy Church commands a WORSHIP peculiar to MARY" (p. 130). "Many things...are asked from God, and are not granted; they are asked from MARY, and are obtained," for "She...is even Queen of Hell, and Sovereign Mistress of the Devils" (pp. 127, 141, 143).

The Word of God says: "In the name of Jesus Christ...For there is no other name under heaven given to men, whereby we must be saved" [Acts 3:6;4:12]. His name is "above every name...not only in this world, but also in that which is to come" [Ephesians 1:21].

(C)Mary Is The Gate To Heaven Instead Of Christ

The Catholic Church says: "Mary is called...the gate of heaven because no one can enter that blessed kingdom without, passing through HER" (p. 160). "The Way of salvation is open to none otherwise than through MARY, " and since "Our salvation is in the hands of Mary...He who is protected by MARY will be saved, he who is not will be lost" (pp. 169, 170).

The Word of God says: "I am the DOOR. By me, if any man enter in, he shall be saved," says Christ [John 10:1, 7, 9]. "Jesus saith to him, I am the Way...no man cometh to the Father but by me" [John 14:6]. "Neither is there salvation in any other" [Acts 4:12].

(D)Mary Is Given The Power OF Christ

The Catholic Church says: "All power is given to thee in Heaven and on earth," so that "at the command of MARY all obey--even God...and thus...God has placed the whole Church...under the domination of MARY" (pp. 180, 181). Mary "is also the Advocate of the whole human race...for she can do what she wills with God" (p. 193).

The Word of God says: "All power is given to me in Heaven and in earth," so that "in the Name of JESUS every knee should bow," "that in all things He may hold the primacy" [Matthew 28:18;Philippians 2:9-11;Colossians 1:18]. "But if any man sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the Just: and he is the propitiation for our sins" [1 John 2:1,2].

(E)Mary Is The Peace-Maker Instead of Jesus Christ Our Peace

The Catholic Church says: "Mary is the Peace-maker between sinners and God" (p. 197). "We often more quickly obtain what we ask by calling on the name of MARY, than by invoking that of Jesus." "She...is our Hope, our Counsel, our Refuge, our Help" (pp. 254, 257).

The Word of God says: "But now in Christ Jesus, you who sometimes were far off, are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For He is our peace" [Ephesians 2:13, 14]. "Hitherto you have not asked anything in my name. Ask and you shall receive," for "Whatsoever we shall ask according to His will, He heareth us" [John 16:23, 24].

(F)Mary Is Given The Glory That Belongs To Christ Alone

The Catholic Church says: "The whole Trinity, O MARY, gave thee a name...above every other name, that at Thy name, every knee should bow, of things in heaven, on earth, and under the earth" (p. 260).

The Word of God says: "God also hath highly exalted HIM, and hath given HIM a name which is above all names, that in the name of JESUS every knee should bow, of those that are in heaven, on earth, and under the earth" [Philippians 2:9, 10].

I could go on and cite you many more claims for your goddess...but it makes me sick to my stomach.


Damiano

[HisChildForever]

Did you know that the "founding fathers" of Protestantism believed in Marian devotion?

[Damiano]

*["Did you know that the 'founding fathers' of Protestantism believed in Marian devotion?"]

***Hello Lady:

Some did indeed. For instance, Martin Luther was very attached to Mary. Too, Martin held onto many of the practices he rebelled against. Tis often said that Martin came out of the Catholic Church...but the Catholic Church never came completely out of Martin. How's that for a summary of the great reformer?

Damiano

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Damiano' date='05 June 2010 - 01:03 AM' timestamp='1275717818' post='2124001']
*["Did you know that the 'founding fathers' of Protestantism believed in Marian devotion?"]

***Hello Lady:

Some did indeed. For instance, Martin Luther was very attached to Mary. Too, Martin held onto many of the practices he rebelled against. Tis often said that Martin came out of the Catholic Church...but the Catholic Church never came completely out of Martin. How's that for a summary of the great reformer?

Damiano
[/quote]
Makes him sound pretty lame, actually.

[Resurrexi]

.

Edited June 5, 2010 by Resurrexi