Marian Devotion

[MIKolbe]

I voted:

1) 0-5% - it's the elvis factor.


2) Hail Mary - It's just my favorite prayer; next to "thank you, Jesus".


3) Mary - I need all the help I can in this life to be with Jesus in the next. Mary is that help for me.

[Resurrexi]

Sancta et immaculata virginitas, quibus te laudibus efferam, nescio: Quia, quem caeli capere non poterant, tuo gremio contulisti. Benedicta tu in mulieribus, et benedictus fructus ventris tui. Quia, quem caeli capere non poterant, tuo gremio contulisti.

O holy and immaculate virginity, I know not with what praises to extol thee: for Him Whom the heavens could not contain, thou didst carry in thy womb. Blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. For Him Whom the heavens could not contain, thou didst carry in thy womb.

[img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/da/Oranta.jpg/377px-Oranta.jpg[/img]

Edited May 29, 2010 by Resurrexi

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='29 May 2010 - 02:30 PM' timestamp='1275157850' post='2120237']
Sancta et immaculata virginitas, quibus te laudibus efferam, nescio: Quia, quem caeli capere non poterant, tuo gremio contulisti. Benedicta tu in mulieribus, et benedictus fructus ventris tui. Quia, quem caeli capere non poterant, tuo gremio contulisti.

O holy and immaculate virginity, I know not with what praises to extol thee: for Him Whom the heavens could not contain, thou didst carry in thy womb. Blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. For Him Whom the heavens could not contain, thou didst carry in thy womb.

[img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/da/Oranta.jpg/377px-Oranta.jpg[/img]
[/quote]

much of these issues come down to wording.
intentions, as always are important.
i really like that prayer. i like the humility, the awe, the tremendous respect etc. i could see myself saying that prayer. it even seems fitting that it should be said.

[dairygirl4u2c]

im not saying it's wrong necessarily.
even the olden catholic in me understands and wants to vote "hail mary" and "mary".
but. whenever i start having those feelings, i intellectually tell myself that they are probably wrong, and then better feelings begin developing regarding picking Jesus and 'our father'. surely, what one feels isn't what is the best answer, and while feelings ahve some merit in deciding, they're not the final answer.
intellectually picking Jesus and 'our father' makes sense, he's the savior, not Mary. if we have issues here, that mgiht mean our ralationship is messed up, or our reliance isnt as it should be (which if there's a faith lithmus test and not jsut a totalityu of what you beleive in Jesus... the test is 'reliance'.). could be though, that Mary is just what many people need to deal with stuff, perhaps even those who are more virtuous and of God, ie humility, and those who pick mary or hail mary are picking a better response. (i should have asked, "is one pick better than the other"?) perhaps it's just a psychological decision, and one isn't better or worse, as id imagine most here would argue.
i tend to think there's an asnwer here, and that picking mary or hail mary isn't the right one.... obviuoslyu though, i dont feel strongly about it.
enough though, that i insist on training my brain and feelings to follow my rational decisions, and enough to suggest others do so as well.

Edited May 29, 2010 by dairygirl4u2c

[Tink]

You REALLY need to read True Devotion to Mary. It explains everything that people are trying to tell you, only much more eloquently than any of us ever could. I could say a million and one things, but the best and most well-backed-up answers will all come from that book. If you're thinking that glorifying, running to, interceding through, or becoming a slave to Mary in any way DETRACTS from the worship of God, you're misunderstanding the relationship completely. Read the book. The whole book. Trust me.

[Damiano]

*["...Mary is the Mother of God..."]

***You are mistaken. The phrase "Mother of God" originated in the Council of Ephesus, in the year 431. It occurs in the creed of Chalcedon...which was adopted by the council which met in that city in 451, and in regard to the person of Christ it declared that He was: "born of the Virgin Mary, the Mother of God ACCORDING TO THE MANHOOD...which latter term means---according to the FLESH OF HUMAN NATURE! The purpose of the expression as used by the Council of Ephesus was NOT to glorify Mary...but to emphasize the DEITY of Christ over against those who DENIED His EQUALITY with the Father and the Holy Spirit. A heretical sect, the Nestorians, separated the TWO NATURES in Christ to such an extent that they held Him to be TWO persons...or rather a DUAL person formed by the union between the divine logos and the human person Jesus of Nazareth. They were accused of teaching that the Logos only inhabited the MAN Jesus, from which it was inferred that they held that the person born of Mary was only a MAN. It was therefore ONLY to emphasize the fact that the "person" born to Mary was truly DIVINE that she was called "the Mother of God."

So then...the term today has come to have a far different meaning from that intended by the early church. It no longer has reference to the orthodox doctrine concerning the person of Christ...but instead is used to exalt Mary to a supernatural status of "Queen of Heaven"..."Queen of Angels"...etc., so that because of her assumed position of prominence in heaven, she is able to approach her Son effectively and to secure for her followers whatever favors they ask through her. When we say that a woman is the mother of a person we mean that she gave birth to that person. But Mary certainly did NOT give birth to God...nor to Jesus Christ as the eternal Son of God. She was NOT the mother of our Lord's DIVINITY---but ONLY of His HUMANITY!! Instead, Jesus Christ, the second person of the Trinity, has existed from ALL ETERNITY and was Mary's CREATOR. Hence the term as used in the present Catholic Church must be rejected.

Hence, in the Catholic Church, Mary is to her WORSHIPPERS what Christ is to true believers. She is the object of all religious affections, and the source from whence all the blessings of salvation are sought and expected. The Bible calls her the "mother of Jesus," but gives her no other title. All that the Catholic church has to substantiate her worship is a sheaf of traditions entirely outside the Bible telling of her appearances to certain monks, nuns and others venerated as "saints."

*["...Why anyone could be troubled that someone looks to Mary with affection shown to a mother is beyond me..."]

***Christians are not troubled by the fact that people have affection for Mary as a mother...for we ALL have mothers that we love. What Christians are troubled with are the UNSCRIPTURAL claims by the Catholic Church which are attributed to Mary--->which claims belong ONLY to Jesus Christ (her CREATOR)!

Damiano

[laetitia crucis]

[quote name='Tink' date='31 May 2010 - 02:08 AM' timestamp='1275286102' post='2121072']
You REALLY need to read True Devotion to Mary. It explains everything that people are trying to tell you, only much more eloquently than any of us ever could. I could say a million and one things, but the best and most well-backed-up answers will all come from that book. If you're thinking that glorifying, running to, interceding through, or becoming a slave to Mary in any way DETRACTS from the worship of God, you're misunderstanding the relationship completely. Read the book. The whole book. Trust me.
[/quote]

iawtp.

[MIKolbe]

[quote name='Damiano' date='04 June 2010 - 06:01 AM' timestamp='1275645681' post='2123564']
A heretical sect, the Nestorians, separated the TWO NATURES in Christ to such an extent that they held Him to be TWO persons...or rather a DUAL person formed by the union between the divine logos and the human person Jesus of Nazareth.

.....

She was NOT the mother of our Lord's DIVINITY---but ONLY of His HUMANITY!!
[/quote]

dUde-

you SOOOOOO sound NESTORIAn, RiGHt THerE!!

(stIll WORKing on my CAPITALization)

[dairygirl4u2c]

"the term today has come to have a far different meaning from that intended by the early church. It no longer has reference to the orthodox doctrine concerning the person of Christ...but instead is used to exalt Mary to a supernatural status of "Queen of Heaven"..."Queen of Angels"...etc.,"

that's a great point. an example of how they've taken it another step, almost surely too far.

"Mary certainly did NOT give birth to God...nor to Jesus Christ as the eternal Son of God. She was NOT the mother of our Lord's DIVINITY---but ONLY of His HUMANITY!! Instead, Jesus Christ, the second person of the Trinity, has existed from ALL ETERNITY and was Mary's CREATOR. Hence the term as used in the present Catholic Church must be rejected."

it seems like i read at the council that defined 'mother of God', this issue came up. that they're just suggesting that it's proper to call mary 'mother of God' given Jesus is God, and they specifically said all the things you're suggesting are not true, eg mother of his diviity or mother of God eternal in eternal form as if a God herself. the council came from the very issues you're raising, i think. they were also trying to moreso define that Jesus is God, so that follows that Mary is the mother of God, given Mary is his mother- if understood right. (was it just a way to validate some pious folks who wanted to call Mary mother of God, and pick sides? i dont know, but im not sure it did much to help, much like getting in with people fighting an trying to say 'well, see, you're technically right cause X', which is kinda silly given they're bias to the point, and could have just as easily insisted not to call Mary mother of God for the reasons said above. showing more about the partiality of the judge than anything. the fairest response might be, 'call her it if you want, or not, as long as it's understood properly why you are or are not doing it') if they did intend more, though, and the current explanation just a facade retrospectively made, id suggest not calling her mother of God, cause of all the bad connotations, it's almost just bad form, but wouldn't be that riled up given there's a decent explanation for it. id even be hesitant, at least intellectually, about using the term given the intentions it may have been made for, given it just confuses a lot of people and may over emphasize stuff. it's almost like the council was asking for controvery 'now ask us why we say that?', as often occurs when people say loaded things an then pompously wait around to give the answers. but again, i never had a concern with it, other than thinking about it intellectually, especially more recently- that could just be my upbringing though.

Edited June 4, 2010 by dairygirl4u2c

[Damiano]

*["The 'truth' in your argument is that latria worship is due only to the Lord..."]

***Your church...without any warrant whatever from Scripture, technically divides worship into three kinds: (1)LATRIA, the supreme worship, given to God alone; (2)DULIA, a secondary kind of veneration given to saints and angels; and (3)HYPERDULIA, a higher kind of veneration given to the Virgin Mary. The theory, however, is useless in practice, for the average worshipper is not able to make the distinctions, nor does he even know that such distinctions exist. The subtleties of definition only confuse the issue...for who can balance his feelings so nicely as to give God, the Virgin, and the saints their due proportion? I must insist that any religious worship, whether inward or outward, consisting of prayer, or praise, and expressed by outward homage such as bowing, kneeling, or prostration, is properly termed worship and belongs to God ALONE.

*["...As de Montfort says, it is satanic to say that because latria belongs to God alone we may not offer Our Lady hyperdulia..."]

***What de Monfort says is of no consequence. His statements are not inspired as are the Scriptures and are only his opinions and speculations---not supported by the Word of God...and, as such, have no credibility for the Christian.

*["...Man should offer all graces to Our Lady, who can keep them and distribute them where she sees they are most needed..."]

***Mary was a born SINNER as was the ENTIRETY of the human race: "For ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" [Romans 3:23]...and again "As it is written, there is NONE righteous, no NOT ONE: There is NONE that understandeth, there is NONE that seeketh after God" [Romans 3:10-11]. ONLY the Lord Jesus Christ was born WITHOUT sin: "For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet WITHOUT SIN" [Hebrews 4:15]. Now compare what the Scriptures say about Mary---who was NOT sinless and ACKNOWLEDGED her SINFULNESS and NEED of a SAVIOUR: "And Mary said, 'My soul doth magnify the Lord, and my spirit hath rejoiced in God MY SAVIOUR. For he hath regarded the LOW ESTATE of his handmaiden (i.e., bondservant): for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. For he that is mighty hath done great things; and holy is his name" [Luke 1:46-49]. NOTE...ONLY sinners NEED a SAVIOUR! If Mary rejoiced in God her SAVIOUR [Luke 1:47]...she was a SINNER and, as such, is NOT a dispenser of ANY graces.

*["...Because Our Lady was blessed to be perfect..."]

***Again...Mary was NOT perfect nor does the Bible sustain your claim that she was. If she was perfect she would not need a Saviour...and she says that she did have a Saviour [Luke 1:47].

*["...and because She is the Mediatrix of all Graces..."]

***Sinners are NOT mediators of graces. Only Jesus Christ is the Mediator between God and man: "For there is one God, and ONE MEDIATOR between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" [1 Timothy 2:5]. Mary cannot act as our priest or mediator because she is NOT sinless and, as such, is NOT qualified to be offered as a sacrifice (which God requires to expiate our sins). Only a priest with a true sacrifice can serve as mediator between God and men. Christ ALONE has a true sacrifice, and He ALONE can act as our priest/mediator.

*["...She will see that none who turn to Her suffer final damnation. If we offer Her everything She will do nothing but lead us to Christ."]

***You are mistaken. Only the Father can draw the unsaved sinner to His dear Son Jesus: "No man can come to me, except the FATHER which hath sent me DRAW him: and I will raise him up at the last day" [John 6:44]. It is the FATHER who draws the sinner to Christ---NOT Mary!

*["...Your lie is that we offer Her latria; your lie is that we make Her God; your lie is that She has will apart from God's own. If this were the case we would be idolaters, not Christians..."]

***I did not make the accusation that you are idolaters...BUT let's see if you QUALIFY for that accusation. Compare the following ATTRIBUTES of Jesus Christ with the ATTRIBUTES the Catholic Church gives to Mary:

(A)THE LORD JESUS CHRIST
-Conceived of the Holy Spirit
-The Son of God
-Born without sin
-Committed no sin
-Suffered on Calvary's cross
-Bodily Ascended into glory
-King of Heaven
-Prince of Peace
-Source of Grace
-Redeemer
-Mediator
-Advocate
-Second Adam

(B)THE CATHOLIC VERSION OF MARY
-Immaculately Conceived
-The Mother of God
-Born without sin
-Committed no sin
-Suffered at Calvary's cross
-Bodily Assumed into glory
-Queen of Heaven
-Queen of Peace
-Channel of all grace
-Co-redeemer
-Mediatrix
-Advocate
-Second Eve

The ATTRIBUTES that your Church makes for Jesus Christ are ATTRIBUTED to Mary as well!!!! In point of fact, her attributes are GREATER since she is the "Channel of ALL graces" while Jesus is just a "source of grace"...(i.e., a distant second if you please). Mary then has ALL the attributes of God according to the titles and claims made for her by the Catholic Church inspite of their denials to the contrary.

I submit that your church does indeed offer her LATRIA and that you regard her as the MOTHER GODDESS OF HEAVEN...and you do qualify as an IDOLATER.

*["She wills only what God wills. To hold Her in highest esteem for Her earthly and heavenly perfection is just and in accord with the will of God; for how can it be idolatry to honor that which God honors? God offered Her to man because He wished to show His own wonders and perfections, His own mercy and His thirst for souls. To diminish the Divine achievements in Our Lady is to diminish God's own work in the world. Mary my Mother is nothing but pure love and mercy, for it is these virtues that God wished to show through Her. Offer yourself daily to Her and She will wrap you in Her mantle and present you to God the Most High.
Again, everything good in Her is good because it is Divine. To detract from this is to attack God Himself.

Sancta Maria, spes nostra, ora pro nobis!"]

***Your "god" is not the Tri-une God of the Scriptures...it is the "Quartet-god" of the Idolaters. NOTHING you have said about your goddess is supported in the Word of God...and, as such, is a lie.

damiano

[MIKolbe]

[quote name='Damiano' date='04 June 2010 - 10:23 AM' timestamp='1275661404' post='2123606']
***You are mistaken. Only the Father can draw the unsaved sinner to His dear Son Jesus: "No man can come to me, except the FATHER which hath sent me DRAW him: and I will raise him up at the last day" [John 6:44]. It is the FATHER who draws the sinner to Christ---NOT Mary!
[/quote]
See John 2:5

and by your flawed argument, CHRIST's command to go forth and make disciples OF all the nations can'T possibly draw the unsaVed sinner to Jesus.

YOUR argument sounds patheticaLLy and positively calvinist..

Edited June 4, 2010 by MIkolbe
proper CAPs

[kafka]

Jesus is the center, apex, culmination of the Hail Mary prayer. Most of the Hail Mary is taken directly from Sacred Scripture.

Hail Mary,
Full of grace, the Lord is with thee, blessed art thou among woman (Luke 1:28),
And blessed is the fruit of thy womb: (Luke 1:28 & 1:42)
Jesus!
Holy Mary,
Mother of God (Luke 1:48, 'so that the mother of my Lord would come to me?')
Pray for us sinners,
Now and at the hour of our death. Amen.

Both the Angel and the Jewish woman (Saint Elizabeth) praise her. And we should too.

[dairygirl4u2c]

you could add to kafka's analysis. the word 'hail' used to salue Jesus when they crucified him, "hail king of hte jews", and I think the "hail" that the angel used with Mary, are the same. That signifies a lot.

That said, tehre are a lot of "no not one who is not a sinner", "all have been lost" etc. We'd have to insist these are just generic verses. Im not comfortable saying Mary is sinnless, though she has a lot going for her that she mgiht be.

even if she was, it'd be through Jesus as a Savior though. like the analogy of stopping soemoen from stepping into a pool, etc. or how is it that she could have been free before death of sin? the same way thyose after death are.
it's all possible. i dont have strong stances, just noting.

[kafka]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' date='04 June 2010 - 03:07 PM' timestamp='1275678458' post='2123755']
That said, tehre are a lot of "no not one who is not a sinner", "all have been lost" etc. We'd have to insist these are just generic verses. Im not comfortable saying Mary is sinnless, though she has a lot going for her that she mgiht be.

even if she was, it'd be through Jesus as a Savior though. like the analogy of stopping soemoen from stepping into a pool, etc. or how is it that she could have been free before death of sin? the same way thyose after death are.
it's all possible. i dont have strong stances, just noting.
[/quote]
The problem with interpreting Scripture is that one must take into account all three pillars of the Faith: Sacred Tradition, Sacred Scripture and Sacred Magisterium. Mary's sinlessness is a deed wrought by God. This deed transcends reason, yet it is open and accessable to reason. And so without accepting the entire faith as a whole, one's interpretation of Sacred Scripture will be stunted.

One must approach Scripture with faith and reason. Reason is limited. Faith opens up one's reasoning ability to interpret what is being revealed, since these revelatory assertions in one sense transcend reason.

[Selah]

[quote]***Your "god" is not the Tri-une God of the Scriptures...it is the "Quartet-god" of the Idolaters. NOTHING you have said about your goddess is supported in the Word of God...and, as such, is a lie.[/quote]

I imagine you quite like the sound of your own voice, don't you dear?