Marian Devotion

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote]Scrupulous devotees are those who imagine they are slighting the Son by honouring the Mother. They fear that by exalting Mary they are belittling Jesus. They cannot bear to see people giving to our Lady the praises due to her and which the Fathers of the Church have lavished upon her. It annoys them to see more people kneeling before Mary's altar than before the Blessed Sacrament, as if these acts were at variance with each other, or as if those who were praying to our Lady were not praying through her to Jesus. They do not want us to speak too often of her or to pray so often to her. Here are some of the things they say: "What is the good of all these rosaries, confraternities and exterior devotions to our Lady? There is a great deal of ignorance in all this. It is making a mockery of religion. Tell us about those who are devoted to Jesus (and they often pronounce his name without uncovering their heads). We should go directly to Jesus, since he is our sole Mediator. We must preach Jesus; that is sound devotion." There is some truth in what they say, but the inference they draw to prevent devotion to our Lady is very insidious. It is a subtle snare of the evil one under the pretext of promoting a greater good. For we never give more honour to Jesus than when we honour his Mother, and we honour her simply and solely to honour him all the more perfectly. We go to her only as a way leading to the goal we seek - Jesus, her Son. [/quote]

this is all about 'some truth' exists in my argument as there is in the other arguemnts- as even this quote admits "there is some truth to what they say". im not sure i even disagree with a lot of people, much of this thread is just psychological stuff, arguing two sides of the same coin. even the most arden marianites here could be raising concerns about 'too much' marian devotion. etc
but with that said, psychologically speaking, if there is an insidious plot here, or pretexts from the evil one, it's those on the end of the spectrum of devotion to Mary. bowing to Mary instead of Jesus, which i admit are not necessarily at variance, or putting more emhasis on the former instead of the later, which is often done-- is far more from satan than anything said by most who are weary of excessive marian devotion.
cause really, while 'it's safest to place emphasis on Jesus' could be pretextually wrong and put wrong devotion on Mary, it's true.

as to the idea of getting Jesus magnified with Mary, as even Mary said in the bible (and it's a good notion in general anyway), that seems alright. i could settle with emphasizing this point.

Edited May 27, 2010 by dairygirl4u2c

[Marie-Therese]

I think it odd to say "I trust in Mary" but not "I totally trust in Mary." To totally trust in someone is not to attribute divinity to them, but simply to say that you know they would, in no way, lead you astray. Mary is the perfect model, the perfect example of how to follow and love Jesus. She would never direct us anywhere BUT to her Blessed Son, our Saviour.

Mary is my mother, my friend, my confidante--I trust in her totally to keep my eyes focused on Jesus. If someone were so misguided as to worship her, then that would be wrong. But to love her, to trust her, to devote yourself to staying by her side...well, that puts you in the closest proximity to Jesus and farther away from sin. That's a good place to be in.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' date='26 May 2010 - 08:56 PM' timestamp='1274925383' post='2118777']
you say they're contrived and silly, but it's a reasonable question, or at least realistically illustrates intentions. i might wonder if you just dont like having to make the choices, or what it might imply if ya said Mary as your main pick.

[/quote]
I don't think it's reasonable by any stretch of the imagination.

[dairygirl4u2c]

it's all about connotations, and psychology. i trust in mary v. i totally trust in mary, are the same... it's just that 'totally' trust in Mary is often taking it too far psycohologcially speaking, and per connotations. implying the person places thir hope of salvation in Mary even if by lip service they might say otherwise. see, you said that they're not necessarily at odds, but depending on how they're understood-- they could be, and often are.

[dairygirl4u2c]

if it's not reasonable, how do you explain that it's not reasonable?

choosing one person to talk to before you die is a realistic possibility. even if the choice of heavening beings for most intents and purposes isn't gonna happen, and not realistic in that sense.... it is still possible, so it's realistic.

and the idea of choosing a prayer is by definition pretty realistically possible. even katherine said she chose to say the hail mary before her almost death. could have said both, sure. but she made her choice. and people everyday do make that sort of choice or even a final choice of prayer when on the very edge of the cliff.

if they are possible, and not just fabrications of something that's not possible, i dont see how youd say they're contrived, or unreasonable in all stretch of the imagination.
the simple fact that they are possible scenarios, shows that in at least some sense, they are reasonable questions, and if this is the case that htey are possible, and people encounter these situations, rationality dictations that they're in some stretch of the imagination, reasonable questions.

im not saying if ya pick Mary on these, that youre bad or anything, or even wrong. im just curious. one might take a 'my soul doth magnify the Lord' attitude towards it all, and that'd be alright, probably, but. you know my tendency in this thread

Edited May 27, 2010 by dairygirl4u2c

[TeresaBenedicta]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' date='26 May 2010 - 11:23 PM' timestamp='1274926993' post='2118809']
it's all about connotations, and psychology. i trust in mary v. i totally trust in mary, are the same... it's just that 'totally' trust in Mary is often taking it too far psycohologcially speaking, and per connotations. implying the person places thir hope of salvation in Mary even if by lip service they might say otherwise. see, you said that they're not necessarily at odds, but depending on how they're understood-- they could be, and often are.
[/quote]

Connotations? Psychology? Implications? Means one thing? Means another?

I think it's about truth, not psychology. It's about the truth of Mary's role in our salvation and what we believe about her as Catholics. It's about explaining that truth when people don't understand it or take certain actions to mean something different.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' date='26 May 2010 - 09:27 PM' timestamp='1274927237' post='2118815']
if it's not reasonable, how do you explain that it's not reasonable?

choosing one person to talk to before you die is a realistic possibility. even if the choice of heavening beings for most intents and purposes isn't gonna happen, and not realistic in that sense.... it is still possible, so it's realistic.

and the idea of choosing a prayer is by definition pretty realistically possible. even katherine said she chose to say the hail mary before her almost death. could have said both, sure. but she made her choice. and people everyday do make that sort of choice or even a final choice of prayer when on the very edge of the cliff.

if they are possible, and not just fabrications of something that's not possible, i dont see how youd say they're contrived, or unreasonable in all stretch of the imagination.
the simple fact that they are possible scenarios, shows that in at least some sense, they are reasonable questions, and so by some stretch of the imagination, rationality dictations that they're in some stretch of the imagination, reasonable questions.
[/quote]
The first question is literally impossible to answer, the second is irrelevant, and the third is impossible. Therefore the questions are unreasonable.

[dairygirl4u2c]

yes it is about truth.
see, i trust in mary often might mean, "i trust if i ask mary to pray for me, she will", or things to that effect, and that's fine. for those who in fact do take marian devotion too far, they place their all salvation or reliance in her. so, they would insert the 'totally' to convey that, "i totally trust in Mary". and you have to know the person or their heart and/or intentions to know that, things only God knows, ultimately, granted.
that's why connotations and implications are the right words to use here, and not just mumbo jumbo. so realistic for those are more concerned than with just happy feelings that devotion to Mary might give, indeed realistic for those who have any concern at all for truth.

--------

if we believe in Jesus and Mary, and believe thtey appear to people, and that God can do what He will, the third question is not impossible.

the second question, if we're to exam psychology, is not irrelvant. true, it doesn't necessarily show anything definitively, but the choice is answer must by definition mean something. legally speaking, and logically, relevance is anything that increases or decreases the possibility of something being true... how people respond does just that. so it's not irrelevant.

the first one is just taking a guess. that it's not possible to truely gauge without scientific studies, doesn't mean our impressions are worthless. it goes back to relevance.

thus, they're all relevant and possible, and by some stretch of the imagination, reasonable.

[princessgianna]

I refuse to anwser the first question because frankly there not enough Catholics who practice Marian devotion.

I feel that right now in this point of my life I can relate better to Mary and through her I am able to relate to her son, my Lord Jesus Christ. When I "go through" Mary I feel that as a woman, I can glorify and appreciate Christ all the more. Because as the saying goes "what mommy does- is what daughter follows". Mary is a perfect example on how I am to love and serve Christ.

Edited May 27, 2010 by princessgianna

[aalpha1989]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' date='26 May 2010 - 10:13 PM' timestamp='1274926391' post='2118796']
[quote]
Scrupulous devotees are those who imagine they are slighting the Son byhonouring the Mother. They fear that by exalting Mary they arebelittling Jesus. They cannot bear to see people giving to our Lady thepraises due to her and which the Fathers of the Church have lavishedupon her. It annoys them to see more people kneeling before Mary'saltar than before the Blessed Sacrament, as if these acts were atvariance with each other, or as if those who were praying to our Ladywere not praying through her to Jesus. They do not want us to speak toooften of her or to pray so often to her. Here are some of the thingsthey say: "What is the good of all these rosaries, confraternities andexterior devotions to our Lady? There is a great deal of ignorance inall this. It is making a mockery of religion. Tell us about those whoare devoted to Jesus (and they often pronounce his name withoutuncovering their heads). We should go directly to Jesus, since he isour sole Mediator. We must preach Jesus; that is sound devotion." Thereis some truth in what they say, but the inference they draw to preventdevotion to our Lady is very insidious. It is a subtle snare of theevil one under the pretext of promoting a greater good. For we nevergive more honour to Jesus than when we honour his Mother, and we honourher simply and solely to honour him all the more perfectly. We go toher only as a way leading to the goal we seek - Jesus, her Son.
[/quote]
this is all about 'some truth' exists in my argument as there is in the other arguemnts- as even this quote admits "there is some truth to what they say". im not sure i even disagree with a lot of people, much of this thread is just psychological stuff, arguing two sides of the same coin. even the most arden marianites here could be raising concerns about 'too much' marian devotion. etc
but with that said, psychologically speaking, if there is an insidious plot here, or pretexts from the evil one, it's those on the end of the spectrum of devotion to Mary. bowing to Mary instead of Jesus, which i admit are not necessarily at variance, or putting more emhasis on the former instead of the later, which is often done-- is far more from satan than anything said by most who are weary of excessive marian devotion.
cause really, while 'it's safest to place emphasis on Jesus' could be pretextually wrong and put wrong devotion on Mary, it's true.

as to the idea of getting Jesus magnified with Mary, as even Mary said in the bible (and it's a good notion in general anyway), that seems alright. i could settle with emphasizing this point.
[/quote]

The "truth" in your argument is that latria worship is due only to the Lord. As de Montfort says, it is satanic to say that because latria belongs to God alone we may not offer Our Lady hyperdulia. Man should offer all graces to Our Lady, who can keep them and distribute them where she sees they are most needed. Man in his imperfection and weakness often loses the simplest graces out of sin and disordered passions. Because Our Lady was blessed to be perfect, and because She is the Mediatrix of all Grace, She will see that none who turn to Her suffer final damnation. If we offer Her everything She will do nothing but lead us to Christ.

As with all lies, the "truth" in your argument is perverted. Every lie has elements of truth.

God created nothing with more dignity than Our Lady. We honor Her because everything good in Her is Divine. We honor Her because to do so is to honor God. We never honor Her for Her own sake, but always for God's. Your lie is that we offer Her latria; your lie is that we make Her God; your lie is that She has will apart from God's own. If this were the case we would be idolaters, not Christians. She wills only what God wills. To hold Her in highest esteem for Her earthly and heavenly perfection is just and in accord with the will of God; for how can it be idolatry to honor that which God honors? God offered Her to man because He wished to show His own wonders and perfections, His own mercy and His thirst for souls. To diminish the Divine achievements in Our Lady is to diminish God's own work in the world. Mary my Mother is nothing but pure love and mercy, for it is these virtues that God wished to show through Her. Offer yourself daily to Her and She will wrap you in Her mantle and present you to God the Most High.
Again, everything good in Her is good because it is Divine. To detract from this is to attack God Himself.

Sancta Maria, spes nostra, ora pro nobis!

[dairygirl4u2c]

if you dont include me, then so far there's more people here who'd say a hail mary than an our father. and that's not including any other non catholics who mightve voted. interesting.
so far in the polling.
andthe last question, if you dont include me, is close.

[Archaeology cat]

She's a perfect example of how to follow God. I admit that I've lapsed in my daily Rosary (a practice I intend to take back up, especially since someone [a non-Catholic] sent me a Rosary for my birthday). But if I put myself at Mary's feet, I put myself at the foot of the cross, and therefore put myself before her Son. I remember when I was pregnant, saying the Hail Mary actually helped me with the nausea. In labour with my son, I'll always remember that it was a Thursday because I was praying the Luminous Mysteries, though I kept forgetting which one I was on. With my daughter it was a faster labour, and I couldn't think enough to do an actual Rosary, but I tried to keep my eyes on the Crucifix and to halfway pray a Hail Mary (couldn't think as I was at the transition). My point, anyway, is that far from leading me away from God, Marian devotion leads me closer to God.

[Apotheoun]

The Theotokos is the bridge between the created and the uncreated, she is more honorable than the Cherubim, and more glorious beyond compare than the Seraphim, without corruption she gave birth to God the Word, and no one can go wrong in extolling her many virtues.

Edited May 27, 2010 by Apotheoun

[Ephrem Augustine]

The best argument that I heard against Marian Devotion is this:
After the Reformation, Protestants started trying to remove Mary from the pictures, so Catholics made it a bigger deal than it ever was before.

The best argument for Marian Devotion is
when you read all the Church Fathers, you will find that they all spoke highly of her.
I think we can all follow their example.

Edited May 27, 2010 by Ephrem Augustine

[fides quarens intellectum]

i had to null my vote because it is not for me to decide how many Catholics have taken their spiritual devotions "too far" as asked in the first question. As for the second two questions, I would have voted "Our Father" and Jesus (I would prefer to see His name capitalized, if you please).