Marian Devotion

[dairygirl4u2c]

i know many would piously say 'you can't take devotion too far!' or 'not enough take it too far' (or 'far enough' to be more logically genuine, given 'too far' is by definition wrong)

are too many catholics relying too much in mary?

i didnt want that other thread to be derailed, but these quotes are notable:

[quote][quote]Salve Regina, on 25 May 2010 - 05:54 PM, said:

I think if God asks me that question [why should i let you into heaven] I'll just give Mary a pleading look and she'll do the rest![/quote]


I think I'd do the same thing! [/quote]

as the years pass from me being a catholic, these things about mary often if not usually are troublesome, as i become less and less 'into' and in vibe with these sorts of things like mary and certain religious practices.

even JPII said that many catholics take marian devotion too far. acknowleing that though, many catholics prayers do seem to fair well with traditions even when they say "mary i rely totally on you" or things to that effect. so there's a disconnect there between what's taught, done etc.
as another example, “St John Damascene had no hesitancy in addressing our Lady in these words: Pure and immaculate Queen, save me, and deliver me from eternal damnation. St Bonaventure called Mary the salvation of those who invoke her”

i do know that when i was catholic and 'into' that sort of stuff, id always feel uneasy yet go along with it with others, and even fool myself, by saying those sorts of things. i know others who are like that but changed, even some who are still catholics who've since realized they took it too far.

for those who realize that, or just generally, id suggest many people reevaluate whether they are relying too much on mary, and not on the person who is the point of it all, Jesus.

i like this exerpt, on that note.

[quote]
"The Catholic doctrine on the person of Christ is biblical and true. But doctrinal orthodoxy is not sufficient by itself. For salvation, it is not enough to give your assent to the truths about Christ - even the demons recognized Jesus as the Son of God. More than accepting the doctrines on Christ as true, the sinner must also entrust himself to Him. The Christian does not merely believe something about Christ; the Christian believes in Christ."

......

"Jesus Christ is the one and only Saviour, and therefore our faith must be exclusively in Him alone. St Peter underlines this fundamental truth, saying: "Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved" (Acts 4:12).

Sadly, Roman Catholic piety leads many Catholics to turn their eyes from Jesus towards Mary. They still "believe in Jesus", of course, yet [...] They apply to someone else. “St John Damascene had no hesitancy in addressing our Lady in these words: Pure and immaculate Queen, save me, and deliver me from eternal damnation. St Bonaventure called Mary the salvation of those who invoke her” (The Glories of Mary, St Alphonsus Liguori)."[/quote]

i do realize, that asking for mary is akin to asking folks you know to pray for you. and im not against praying to saints or even mary. do we pray to joseph since he's got the inside with mary? do we pray to josph's mom since she's low key yet the connection to joseph, who'd surely be a connection to mary and then to God etc? you can see some of the problems. just keep it in perspective and keep it healthy is all im saying.
even i as someone who'd pray to mary, even as a haily mary, i dont know how much reliance should be given to her. 'pray for our sinners', and the hail mary, is plenty of reliance for me though, for sure.if you want to help define what is a healthy reliance, that'd be great use of this thread too.

Edited May 26, 2010 by dairygirl4u2c

[Selah]

Of all the problems I have with the Church right now, Mary is not one of them, and I don't think she ever will be. Mary is the Mother of God, after all. She is relied on because of who she is. The blessed Theotokos, not a goddess, but a woman chosen by God Himself to bear the Son of God, Jesus.

To rely on Mary, the Queen of Heaven, the Hope of Christians, to me, is such a beautiful thing, and is so lost in our "modernized Christianity" so popular nowadays. Why anyone could be troubled that someone looks to Mary with affection shown to a mother is beyond me. Because that is who she is...Mother.

[goldenchild17]

Not far enough. Far too few Catholics are relying enough on Mary, even otherwise good-standing Catholics.

Edited May 26, 2010 by goldenchild17

[TeresaBenedicta]

When I first became Catholic the Marian devotion seemed way over the top to me- even something as simple as a daily Rosary seemed overboard.

As time has passed and I've really grown in my understanding of Mariology, I've found myself more and more a "Momma's girl." Without a proper understanding of Mary and her role in our salvation, all devotion to her that is above what we give the rest of the saints will not make much sense. And that goes both ways. I mean, if there is great devotion but no understanding of [i]why[/i] or a misunderstanding of why, that devotion makes no sense and it can, ultimately, lead someone astray.

The most important thing about Marian devotion is that is always ordered toward Jesus. As the Blessed Mother said, "My soul magnifies the greatness of the Lord..." Mary is always pointing toward her Divine Son and always working to bring her children to Him. If Marian devotion does not bring a soul closer to Jesus, than it is not proper devotion.

About two years ago I made the consecration to the Blessed Mother according to St. Maximilian Kolbe. The language used in the consecration prayer (as well as in Louis de Montfort's prayer of total consecration and his [i]True Devotion[/i]) can once again seem off-putting. For example,

[i]O Immaculata, Queen of Heaven and Earth,
Refuge of sinners and our most loving Mother,
God has willed to entrust the entire order of mercy to thee,
I, a repentant sinner, [b]cast myself at your feet,
Humbling imploring you take me, with all that I am and have,
Wholly to yourself as your possession and property.[/b]
Please make of me, of all my powers of soul and body,
Of my whole life, death, and eternity, whatever most pleases you.
If it pleases you, use all that I am and have without reserve,
Wholly to accomplish what was said of you: "She will crush your head,"
And "You alone have destroyed all heresies in the whole world."[/i]

Yet, this sort of language is appropriate when one really realizes Mary's role in the history of salvation. Just as the priest is a real instrument in bringing about the sacraments, so is Mary a real instrument in bringing about God's grace. Just as without the priest we would not have the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, so too without Mary, we would not have access to the grace of God. Could God have made it otherwise? He could have... but He didn't. It pleased Him to establish the order of grace in this way.

So it would then seem very appropriate to give Mary such a high seat of honor and to have a special devotion for her... precisely because she is always pointing us toward her Son.

Edit: Forgot to italicize the prayer.

Edited May 27, 2010 by TeresaBenedicta

[dairygirl4u2c]

"keep it healthy, define it"

examples.
"i trust in mary" is probably okay, but taking it a bit far, given the connotations often applied to that, as if it's a total trust or a trust that's
"i trust totally in mary" is probably not okay, given it might and often does imply totally to the exclusion of any real trust in Jesus.
"pray for our sinners" is almost surely okay, given it's not implying total trust or anything.
course, 'i trust in mary' and 'pray for us' are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

what that analysis shows, is a lot of this comes down to psychology. things in the nature of 'who would you pray to if you had one last prayer?' etc.
'mary is the mother, jesus is the father--- and the father aint too happy, gotta talk to hte mom if you want anything done' 'can't trust in dad so must trust in mom' sort of stuff doesn't seem healthy. and a lot of it is merley earlthy emotion that one might apply to one's parents, projected onto religious icons, and ultiamtely are lies if it's like the 'can't trust in dad' sort of thing.
and a lot of it comes down to thsoe who dont know they're taking it too far, or that they dont rely on Jesus enough. they believe things about him, but dont rely on him, or things like that. hardly anyone would knowingly take it too far- that'd be self defeating.

Edited May 27, 2010 by dairygirl4u2c

[Selah]

[quote]cast myself at your feet,
Humbling imploring you take me, with all that I am and have,
Wholly to yourself as your possession and property[/quote]

One of the most lovely lines in that prayer <3

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='TeresaBenedicta' date='26 May 2010 - 05:56 PM' timestamp='1274918165' post='2118618']
When I first became Catholic the Marian devotion seemed way over the top to me- even something as simple as a daily Rosary seemed overboard.

As time has passed and I've really grown in my understanding of Mariology, I've found myself more and more a "Momma's girl." Without a proper understanding of Mary and her role in our salvation, all devotion to her that is above what we give the rest of the saints will not make much sense. And that goes both ways. I mean, if there is great devotion but no understanding of [i]why[/i] or a misunderstanding of why, that devotion makes no sense and it can, ultimately, lead someone astray.

The most important thing about Marian devotion is that is always ordered toward Jesus. As the Blessed Mother said, "My soul magnifies the greatness of the Lord..." Mary is always pointing toward her Divine Son and always working to bring her children to Him. If Marian devotion does not bring a soul closer to Jesus, than it is not proper devotion.

About two years ago I made the consecration to the Blessed Mother according to St. Maximilian Kolbe. The language used in the consecration prayer (as well as in Louis de Montfort's prayer of total consecration and his [i]True Devotion[/i]) can once again seem off-putting. For example,

[i]O Immaculata, Queen of Heaven and Earth,
Refuge of sinners and our most loving Mother,
God has willed to entrust the entire order of mercy to thee,
I, a repentant sinner, [b]cast myself at your feet,
Humbling imploring you take me, with all that I am and have,
Wholly to yourself as your possession and property.[/b]
Please make of me, of all my powers of soul and body,
Of my whole life, death, and eternity, whatever most pleases you.
If it pleases you, use all that I am and have without reserve,
Wholly to accomplish what was said of you: "She will crush your head,"
And "You alone have destroyed all heresies in the whole world."

Yet, this sort of language is appropriate when one really realizes Mary's role in the history of salvation. Just as the priest is a real instrument in bringing about the sacraments, so is Mary a real instrument in bringing about God's grace. Just as without the priest we would not have the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, so too without Mary, we would not have access to the grace of God. Could God have made it otherwise? He could have... but He didn't. It pleased Him to establish the order of grace in this way.

So it would then seem very appropriate to give Mary such a high seat of honor and to have a special devotion for her... precisely because she is always pointing us toward her Son.
[/quote]


+1

[TeresaBenedicta]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' date='26 May 2010 - 08:57 PM' timestamp='1274918228' post='2118620']
"keep it healthy, define it"

examples.
"i trust in mary" is probably okay, but taking it a bit far, given the connotations often applied to that, as if it's a total trust or a trust that's
"i trust totally in mary" is probably not okay, given it might and often does imply totally to the exclusion of any real trust in Jesus.
"pray for our sinners" is almost surely okay, given it's not implying total trust or anything.
course, 'i trust in mary' and 'pray for us' are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

what that analysis shows, is a lot of this comes down to psychology. things in the nature of 'who would you pray to if you had one last prayer?' etc.
and a lot of it comes down to thsoe who dont know they're taking it too far, or that they dont rely on Jesus enough. they believe things about him, but dont rely on him, or things like that. hardly anyone would knowingly take it too far- that'd be self defeating.
[/quote]

I'm not sure I follow...

How can any trust in Mary a) be too far and b) be at the exclusion of any real trust in Jesus? Her mission and her Son's are the same-- more perfectly the same than any other human being has managed in aligning their will with God's. That's what's so fitting about placing all of our trust in Mary-- we know, without any sliver of doubt, that she will never lead us astray. Her heart is so in tuned with Jesus' and her will so perfectly the same as His, that she can never lead us to anything but Him.

[CatherineM]

When I almost died, I said the Hail Mary. At least the first part. I couldn't seem to remember the second half, so I kept saying the first part over and over again.

[Selah]

[quote]When I almost died, I said the Hail Mary. At least the first part. I couldn't seem to remember the second half, so I kept saying the first part over and over again. [/quote]

[sacredheartandbloodofjesus]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' date='26 May 2010 - 06:57 PM' timestamp='1274918228' post='2118620']
"keep it healthy, define it"

examples.
"i trust in mary" is probably okay, but taking it a bit far, given the connotations often applied to that, as if it's a total trust or a trust that's
"i trust totally in mary" is probably not okay, given it might and often does imply totally to the exclusion of any real trust in Jesus.
[b]"pray for our sinners"[/b] is almost surely okay, given it's not implying total trust or anything.
course, 'i trust in mary' and 'pray for us' are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

what that analysis shows, is a lot of this comes down to psychology. things in the nature of 'who would you pray to if you had one last prayer?' etc.
'mary is the mother, jesus is the father--- and the father aint too happy, gotta talk to hte mom if you want anything done' 'can't trust in dad so must trust in mom' sort of stuff doesn't seem healthy. and a lot of it is merley earlthy emotion that one might apply to one's parents, projected onto religious icons, and ultiamtely are lies if it's like the 'can't trust in dad' sort of thing.
and a lot of it comes down to thsoe who dont know they're taking it too far, or that they dont rely on Jesus enough. they believe things about him, but dont rely on him, or things like that. hardly anyone would knowingly take it too far- that'd be self defeating.
[/quote]

I dont want to offend you or anything but we say "pray for [b]us[/b] sinners" in the Hail Mary and not "pray for [b]our[/b] sinners". Maybe you did a typo or didnt know this, just wanted to clue you in.

[aalpha1989]

[quote]
Critical devotees

93. Critical devotees are for the most part proud scholars, people of independent and self-satisfied minds, who deep down in their hearts have a vague sort of devotion to Mary. However, they criticise nearly all those forms of devotion to her which simple and pious people use to honour their good Mother just because such practices do not appeal to them. They question all miracles and stories which testify to the mercy and power of the Blessed Virgin, even those recorded by trustworthy authors or taken from the chronicles of religious orders. They cannot bear to see simple and humble people on their knees before an altar or statue of our Lady, or at prayer before some outdoor shrine. They even accuse them of idolatry as if they were adoring the wood or the stone. They say that as far as they are concerned they do not care for such outward display of devotion and that they are not so gullible as to believe all the fairy tales and stories told of our Blessed Lady. When you tell them how admirably the Fathers of the Church praised our Lady, they reply that the Fathers were exaggerating as orators do, or that their words are misrepresented. These false devotees, these proud worldly people are greatly to be feared. They do untold harm to devotion to our Lady. While pretending to correct abuses, they succeed only too well in turning people away from this devotion.

Scrupulous devotees

94. Scrupulous devotees are those who imagine they are slighting the Son by honouring the Mother. They fear that by exalting Mary they are belittling Jesus. They cannot bear to see people giving to our Lady the praises due to her and which the Fathers of the Church have lavished upon her. It annoys them to see more people kneeling before Mary's altar than before the Blessed Sacrament, as if these acts were at variance with each other, or as if those who were praying to our Lady were not praying through her to Jesus. They do not want us to speak too often of her or to pray so often to her. Here are some of the things they say: "What is the good of all these rosaries, confraternities and exterior devotions to our Lady? There is a great deal of ignorance in all this. It is making a mockery of religion. Tell us about those who are devoted to Jesus (and they often pronounce his name without uncovering their heads). We should go directly to Jesus, since he is our sole Mediator. We must preach Jesus; that is sound devotion." There is some truth in what they say, but the inference they draw to prevent devotion to our Lady is very insidious. It is a subtle snare of the evil one under the pretext of promoting a greater good. For we never give more honour to Jesus than when we honour his Mother, and we honour her simply and solely to honour him all the more perfectly. We go to her only as a way leading to the goal we seek - Jesus, her Son.

95. The Church, with the Holy Spirit, blesses our Lady first, then Jesus, "Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus." Not that Mary is greater than Jesus, or even equal to him - that would be an intolerable heresy. But in order to bless Jesus more perfectly we should first bless Mary. Let us say with all those truly devoted to her, despite these false and scrupulous devotees: "O Mary, blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus."
[/quote]


This from True Devotion accurately describes your misplaced critiques of Our Lady. In criticizing devotion to Her you criticize Her person and the person of Her Divine Son, and do harm to the Body of Christ. You are potentially misleading Christians away from their Blessed Mother who desires only to lead them to Divine Union.

I realize this post may be offensive, but Our Lady is close to my heart (though I am extremely imperfect and sinful). I take more offense to this thread than if it had been directed at my earthly mother.

[aalpha1989]

[quote]
30. Just as in natural and bodily generation there is a father and a mother, so in the supernatural and spiritual generation there is a father who is God and a mother who is Mary. All true children of God have God for their father and Mary for their mother; anyone who does not have Mary for his mother, does not have God for his father. This is why the reprobate, such as heretics and schismatics, who hate, despise or ignore the Blessed Virgin, do not have God for their father though they arrogantly claim they have, because they do not have Mary for their mother. Indeed if they had her for their mother they would love and honour her as good and true children naturally love and honour the mother who gave them life. An infallible and unmistakable sign by which we can distinguish a heretic, a man of false doctrine, an enemy of God, from one of God's true friends is that the heretic and the hardened sinner show nothing but contempt and indifference for our Lady. He endeavours by word and example, openly or insidiously - sometimes under specious pretexts - to belittle the love and veneration shown to her. God the Father has not told Mary to dwell in them because they are, alas, other Esaus.
[/quote]

[Nihil Obstat]

The poll choices are contrived and silly.

[dairygirl4u2c]

you say they're contrived and silly, but it's a reasonable question, or at least realistically illustrates intentions. i might wonder if you just dont like having to make the choices, or what it might imply if ya said Mary as your main pick.

what im getting at with a lot of this thread, is stuff that goes beyond hte obvious, psychological. saying things like 'with my last chance at life, before God, i would turn to Mary' says a lot about their true devotions. im not saying it is too far, just that it can and often is too far. just like 'Mary, i trust in you' isn't necessarily too far, but often the intentions behind it are too far.
mary psychologically speaking, might be something to the effect of filling in the gaps of doubt. 'i trust in Jesus, and all that, then once i start to doubt or lessen trust, i just remember Mary and then im good again'. i might be offending the true good purpose by saying that seems suspicious, cause God might be fine with it. it just seems suspicious to me.

with all this thread, dont get me wrong, i enjoy the feelings that marian devotion give me. and i occastionally even still say hail mary prayers, even. in fact, whenever i do formal prayers like when i was a catholic (which i dont do as much as i used to) for the psychological benefit per faith (and the inhernet goodness of the prayer), i still include a hail mary.

Edited May 27, 2010 by dairygirl4u2c