Crazy Jesuit

[Noel's angel]

WHAAAAAAA????????


Stating that “Catholics can become fanatical about one form of the Body of Christ in the bread of the Eucharist as the REAL presence of Christ,” Father Michael Kelly, the Jesuit CEO of the Asian Catholic news agency UCA News, criticized the doctrine of transubstantiation in a May 24 column.
In his column-- a critique of the new, more accurate liturgical translations that reflect the content and dignity of the original Latin-- Father Kelly writes:


Regrettably, all too frequently, the only Presence focused on is Christ’s presence in the elements of bread and wine. Inadequately described as the change of the “substance” (not the “accidents”) of bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ, the mystery of the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist carries the intellectual baggage of a physics no one accepts. Aristotelian physics makes such nice, however implausible and now unintelligible, distinctions. They are meaningless in the post-Newtonian world of quantum physics, which is the scientific context we live in today.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church, on the other hand, teaches:


The Council of Trent summarizes the Catholic faith by declaring: "Because Christ our Redeemer said that it was truly his body that he was offering under the species of bread, it has always been the conviction of the Church of God, and this holy Council now declares again, that by the consecration of the bread and wine there takes place a change of the whole substance of the bread into the substance of the body of Christ our Lord and of the whole substance of the wine into the substance of his blood. This change the holy Catholic Church has fittingly and properly called transubstantiation." (no. 1376)

[Marie-Therese]

That was a confusing read, but either that priest is saying that he thinks that transubstantiation also changes the accidents of the eucharistic hosts and wine, or he is saying that transubstantiation doesn't happen at all. Either way, he's daft.

[iheartjp2]

Where's the rest of the article? I really want to read everything he has to say on this. I didn't really understand what he was getting at either.

[fides quarens intellectum]

me, neither.

although, on a similar note, I recently heard a Dominican priest say something during a homily about how he doesn't really like the recent focus on The Real Presence at Mass among Catholics in the Church these days, since it detracts from Christ's presence out in the real world.

[Catholic Fox]

Sad times.

[fides quarens intellectum]

[quote name='Catholic Fox' date='26 May 2010 - 04:57 PM' timestamp='1274911029' post='2118508']
Sad times.
[/quote]

yes, indeed. So, downplay the Eucharist, then wonder about vocations crises in the Church today?

[Marie-Therese]

[quote name='fides quarens intellectum' date='26 May 2010 - 05:48 PM' timestamp='1274910494' post='2118488']
me, neither.

although, on a similar note, I recently heard a Dominican priest say something during a homily about how he doesn't really like the recent focus on The Real Presence at Mass among Catholics in the Church these days, since it detracts from Christ's presence out in the real world.
[/quote]

Dear God, save us! Jesus is really and truly present to nourish us and we should downplay that? Do these people know what they are saying? I am aghast.

[Skinzo]

I'm so fed up with the Jesuits. I don't know what else to say except I'm glad the average age of their members is about 65. Soon, they just won't be a factor anymore.

S.

[iheartjp2]

[quote name='Skinzo' date='26 May 2010 - 08:02 PM' timestamp='1274918574' post='2118630']
I'm so fed up with the Jesuits. I don't know what else to say except I'm glad the average age of their members is about 65. Soon, they just won't be a factor anymore.

S.
[/quote]

I say we take a leaf out of the Oreillons' book and start eating Jesuits. Not all, just most.

[Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam]

[quote name='Skinzo' date='26 May 2010 - 09:02 PM' timestamp='1274918574' post='2118630']
I'm so fed up with the Jesuits. I don't know what else to say except I'm glad the average age of their members is about 65. Soon, they just won't be a factor anymore.

S.
[/quote]

Horrible. Simply Horrible.

Personally, I am fed up with people who mistake errant sons for the whole body (this happens for religious orders as well as those who look at the Church as a whole).

Having been educated by the Jesuits, Benedictines, and Diocesean Priests at different times in my life (college, highschool, and grammar school), I still make the claim that the most orthodox and intelligent priests I have ever met were the Jesuits. In the New Orleans Province, the Jesuits are quite good. They actually are moving many of the priests out from here to other places to help and placing many of the teachers I had for school as the heads of Jesuit Tampa, Jesuit New Orleans and etc. In fact, one was chosen by the Pope and sent to Oxford for his doctorate in Astronomy and is now working the Vatican Observatory in Rome. Their telescope is awesome. Now all that being said there are 14 novices for the New Orleans provinces this year, the Church is reviving. I think we are coming up on an upswing for vocations. In fact this Corpus Christi, I'll help serve with Jesuit Novices The Archbishop's Annual Eucharistic Procession. This year it is from the Jesuit Church (Immaculate Conception, my home parish) to the Cathedral (through the heart of the city of New Orleans).

Yes, there are many unorthodox Jesuits (it seems that orthodox priests in general get more attention since they are going against the grain than the orthodox). However, there are many highly orthodox Jesuits that are amazing. I have met more orthodox ones than unorthodox ones actually. There seems to be a general lack of orthodoxy in a generation of priests in general (something that can be seen more in the religious orders and especially the Jesuits since they are more vocal and more out in the eye of the public unlike Benedictines and others), but I think things are picking up. I am hopeful and I pray for the continued guidance of the religious orders and Church as a whole by the Holy Spirit.

[Skinzo]

[quote name='Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam' date='26 May 2010 - 02:42 PM' timestamp='1274920960' post='2118670']
Horrible. Simply Horrible.

Personally, I am fed up with people who mistake errant sons for the whole body (this happens for religious orders as well as those who look at the Church as a whole).

Having been educated by the Jesuits, Benedictines, and Diocesean Priests at different times in my life (college, highschool, and grammar school), I still make the claim that the most orthodox and intelligent priests I have ever met were the Jesuits. In the New Orleans Province, the Jesuits are quite good. They actually are moving many of the priests out from here to other places to help and placing many of the teachers I had for school as the heads of Jesuit Tampa, Jesuit New Orleans and etc. In fact, one was chosen by the Pope and sent to Oxford for his doctorate in Astronomy and is now working the Vatican Observatory in Rome. Their telescope is awesome. Now all that being said there are 14 novices for the New Orleans provinces this year, the Church is reviving. I think we are coming up on an upswing for vocations. In fact this Corpus Christi, I'll help serve with Jesuit Novices The Archbishop's Annual Eucharistic Procession. This year it is from the Jesuit Church (Immaculate Conception, my home parish) to the Cathedral (through the heart of the city of New Orleans).

Yes, there are many unorthodox Jesuits (it seems that orthodox priests in general get more attention since they are going against the grain than the orthodox). However, there are many highly orthodox Jesuits that are amazing. I have met more orthodox ones than unorthodox ones actually. There seems to be a general lack of orthodoxy in a generation of priests in general (something that can be seen more in the religious orders and especially the Jesuits since they are more vocal and more out in the eye of the public unlike Benedictines and others), but I think things are picking up. I am hopeful and I pray for the continued guidance of the religious orders and Church as a whole by the Holy Spirit.
[/quote]

My experience (and I was also Jesuit educated in high school) is quite different. My father was a professor at Georgetown University and was educated all the way by Jesuits. What happened to the order after Vatican II broke his heart and caused him to withdraw his support. Worse, he saw good Jesuits persecuted simply because they were orthodox. Those good men spent the rest of their priestly careers without assignments. I myself had two Jesuit friends who suffered in a similar fashion. I would be happy if there was just one orthodox school of Jesuit theology anywhere but I don't know of any, though yes there does seem to be an occasional good one, though they are usually without any power or influence, or they just don't teach theology. Father Fessio and Father Pacwa come to mind. Your post seems ambiguous. You say "there are many highly orthodox Jesuits" and you say "there are many unorthodox Jesuits". So which is it? The parenthetical remark you make in the same paragraph makes no sense whatsoever. Are you saying there is a Jesuit school in New Orleans which is orthodox and loyal to the Pope? That I find hard to believe. A friend of mine gave serious consideration to joining the Jesuits once, but a good Jesuit talked him out of it. Why? Because the Jesuit formation programs were universally BAD. The good Jesuit warned him he would simply be run out of the order for being orthodox.

S.

Edited May 27, 2010 by Skinzo

[Nihil Obstat]

Crazy Jesuit criticizes Transubstantiation? I thought Karl Rahner was dead.

[Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam]

[quote name='Skinzo' date='26 May 2010 - 10:06 PM' timestamp='1274922405' post='2118703']
My experience (and I was also Jesuit educated in high school) is quite different. My father was a professor at Georgetown University and was educated all the way by Jesuits. What happened to the order after Vatican II broke his heart and caused him to withdraw his support. Worse, he saw good Jesuits persecuted simply because they were orthodox. Those good men spent the rest of their priestly careers without assignments. I myself had two Jesuit friends who suffered in a similar fashion. I would be happy if there was just one orthodox school of Jesuit theology anywhere but I don't know of any, though yes there does seem to be an occasional good one, though they are usually without any power or influence, or they just don't teach theology. Father Fessio and Father Pacwa come to mind. Your post seems ambiguous. You say "there are many highly orthodox Jesuits" and you say "there are many unorthodox Jesuits". So which is it? The parenthetical remark you make in the same paragraph makes no sense whatsoever. Are you saying there is a Jesuit school in New Orleans which is orthodox and loyal to the Pope? That I find hard to believe. A friend of mine gave serious consideration to joining the Jesuits once, but a good Jesuit talked him out of it. Why? Because the Jesuit formation programs were universally BAD. The good Jesuit warned him he would simply be run out of the order for being orthodox.

S.
[/quote]

I am saying that no organization is purely orthodox or purely unorthodox (hence the comment of some are orthodox and some aren't--I am realistic). I am saying that I went to Jesuit New Orleans and learned my love of orthodoxy from the Jesuits. Yes they are loyal to the Pope. When Pope John Paul the II went died we went to Fr. Hermes SJ and said "Father who should we pray for to be Pope next?" He pulled a Cardinal Ratzinger Fan Club mug off of his shelf, poured a cup of coffee and said "Well if you want an Italian?" and we said "no who do we want to be pope?" and he replied "Ratzinger." Fr. Saunders is in his office every morning hearing confessions for the Students. There is a morning mass before every school day by one of the priests. Fr. Hermes, Fr. Fitzgerald, Fr. Brown took us to WYD and gave us theology lessons about encyclicals there. They took us on mission trips and the novices were constantly around. After Katrina they moved Fr. Fitzgerald to Jesuit Dallas to teach there and helped the school. Next year, he will be president of Jesuit High School, New Orleans soon (he is incredibly orthodox who I know personally and until recently was the number two man in the entire New Orleans province--texas to florida and the missouri province was just merged into the New Orleans province under his watch too). He'll be happier running the school anyway; he hated being the number two guy and doing all that administration stuff. Fr. Hermes is now President of Jesuit Tampa and is improving that school. Fr. Schiro SJ teaches a prayer class on the Bible and on the Spiritual exercises of St. Ignatius to Seniors at Jesuit New Orleans. The priests founded and led the pro-life club there. They got governor Bobby Jindal, George Wigel, and others to come talk to the Students. All these Jesuits taught theology along with the Novices who were spectacular. They do have influence and they are being promoted. I am not saying it was perfect (more could have been asked for out of some of the lay teachers) but the brothers, novices and priests were amazing. I am sorry that things did not go well for you or your father up north at georgetown; however, down south here things are going well. There are many great Jesuits, I have been blessed to know some of them, and they are being promoted and moved to where they can do good. Honestly, I am considering a priestly vocation and really I am only considering the Jesuits (that and one monastery that I am close to that has a school and is very intellectually focused) because of their impact on me through schooling and basically teaching me The Faith and the morals of the Church.

I am sorry for the pain the Jesuits caused your family. I cannot speak about Jesuits in the Northern Provinces (about which I hear horrible things). In the New Orleans province, many good things are happening here and the priests are leading the way. They have many vocations. You don't hear about it as much b/c well disobedient priests get more coverage. My family and I have had much contact with the Jesuits. My grandfather was raised by them when he came to America and was taught by them. His son, my uncle was taught by them. So was I. I know you find it hard to believe that there can be good in such an organization as the Jesuits; however, I think the plight of those good Jesuits you mentioned was the plight of orthodox priests in the Church in general, not just the Jesuits (this is just what I hear from other orders and priests).

I would not dare claim that anything is "universally BAD" or good. That is unrealistic. However, they could have been better yes. Down here (the only thing I can vouch for and know of first hand) the formation is getting better and is quite good. Again I am sorry you and your family experienced so much pain, but I have been nothing but blessed to know and be taught by Jesuits here in New Orleans.

-AMDG.

Edited May 27, 2010 by Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam

[aalpha1989]

The Jesuits have a long tradition of scholasticism and orthodoxy. For the sakes of Ss. Ignatius of Loyola, Isaac Jogues, Francis Xavier, and countless more, I pray that the order survives and thrives in full Communion with the pope. I pray that the order undergoes a rejuvenation and that the Church is led into a new age of faithfulness led first by the prayers of contemplatives, and second by the studies and alms of actives.

[TeresaBenedicta]

I know an excellent Jesuit (an older man, mind you) who cringes at some of his brother priests. I agree that it's not really fair to slam the entire Jesuit order for lack of orthodoxy with certain members-- even if it is an over-whelmingly large number. I think if we look at the orthodoxy of most diocesan priests of the same age we'd find fairly similar results. The 60s and 70s took their toll on most everyone.