Pentecostalism In The Catholic Church

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='dominicansoul' date='28 May 2010 - 08:50 AM' timestamp='1275051039' post='2119662']
it's obvious you do, or you wouldn't have whined about it in the first place...




pushing your opinion over and over again while damning everybody's elses isn't what I would call "debating."
[/quote]

Again when you're ready to debate the actual topic instead of whine about what you don't like about me I'm ready for the debate.

[Selah]

[quote]That was a horrible movie. [/quote]

What? It was! Everyone raves about how Gone With the Wind was this great classic...no. It was lame.

[MissScripture]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='28 May 2010 - 12:34 PM' timestamp='1275064476' post='2119730']
Again when you're ready to debate the actual topic instead of whine about what you don't like about me I'm ready for the debate.
[/quote]



































[quote name='Selah' date='28 May 2010 - 04:50 PM' timestamp='1275079843' post='2119831']
What? It was! Everyone raves about how Gone With the Wind was this great classic...no. It was lame.
[/quote]
I have a weird love-hate relationship with the movie. I LOVED the book. The movie captivates me, but at the same time I can't stand it. I don't really know how to explain it. And I have to fastfoward through some parts because they drive me up the wall with the acting!

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='27 May 2010 - 06:29 PM' timestamp='1274999347' post='2119334']
frankly my dear I don't give a dåmn.
[/quote]


[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='28 May 2010 - 01:09 AM' timestamp='1275023399' post='2119595']
[img]http://media.publicbroadcasting.net/wkms/newsroom/images/3184887.jpg[/img]
[/quote]

...it was SEXY when HE said it....

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='organwerke' date='28 May 2010 - 06:55 AM' timestamp='1275051305' post='2119665']
I could do an example that touches me directly.
I'm an Opus Dei coworker. Opus Dei is quite new as a reality in the Catholic Church, and before it was approved, many persons, also priests, thought that it was heretical, that it was devil's work etc.

Then, in 1982 Opus Dei was erected in a Praelatura Personalis and it was so completely approved as an apostolic institution of the Catholic Church.
In 2003 its founder was declared saint.
So, those who thought that it was heretical were evidently wrong.[/quote]
Just a friendly reminder, but canonization of saints and papal approval of an order does not mean that everything associated with the person canonized or the group approved is by definition orthodox.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='organwerke' date='28 May 2010 - 06:55 AM' timestamp='1275051305' post='2119665']
First of all, you should say: the movement has divided persons in the Catholic Church, and not the Catholic Church.
Then, I think that it is a quite normal that this happens when there isn't a definitive, official position of the Church yet.[/quote]
The Church is composed of persons, and so it is perfectly correct theologically to say that the Church is divided when her members disagree on a particular spiritual issue.

Edited May 29, 2010 by Apotheoun

[organwerke]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='29 May 2010 - 11:28 AM' timestamp='1275125312' post='2120082']
The Church is composed of persons, and so it is perfectly correct theologically to say that the Church is divided when her members disagree on a particular spiritual issue.
[/quote]

I think instead that it is not theologically correct.
The Church as a divine institution is not the result of the "sum" or the "parties" of its single members.

Maybe you could ask also to other theologians what they think about this.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='organwerke' date='29 May 2010 - 06:31 AM' timestamp='1275136299' post='2120102']
I think instead that it is not theologically correct.
The Church as a divine institution is not the result of the "sum" or the "parties" of its single members.

Maybe you could ask also to other theologians what they think about this.
[/quote]
There would never be any schism or heresies if you were correct, but that is clearly a manifestly false proposition.

[Apotheoun]

The Vatican document [i]Communionis Notio[/i] also states quite clearly that the Eastern Orthodox Churches are true particular Churches, but that they are also divided from the Western Church; thus clearly the members of the CDF (including then Cardinal Ratzinger) recognize the fact that there can be divisions within the Church.

[organwerke]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='29 May 2010 - 11:25 AM' timestamp='1275125141' post='2120081']
Just a friendly reminder, but canonization of saints and papal approval of an order does not mean that everything associated with the person canonized or the group approved is by definition orthodox.
[/quote]

Of course not but it means that the Church rely on these persons, that are proposed as models for the faithfuls, and that see the institution as a true and genuine way to reach the santity.

Of course single members can embrace heresy, or the founder himslef could have done mistakes in his life but again you do confusion between the "earthly" reality and the "divine, spiritual" one.

[organwerke]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='29 May 2010 - 02:35 PM' timestamp='1275136548' post='2120104']
The Vatican document [i]Communionis Notio[/i] also states quite clearly that the Eastern Orthodox Churches are true particular Churches, but that they are also divided from the Western Church; thus clearly the members of the CDF (including then Cardinal Ratzinger) recognize the fact that there can be divisions within the Church.
[/quote]

Before the Oriental Schism there was only a One Great Church.
Then the Churches divided mostly because of the errors of its isngle members.
If you talk about the earthly reality of the Church, yes, I confirm it can be divided.
But the spiritual Church can't, as the Orthodoxy and the Truth can't be divided in itslef.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='organwerke' date='29 May 2010 - 06:38 AM' timestamp='1275136700' post='2120105']
Of course not but it means that the Church rely on these persons, that are proposed as models for the faithfuls, and that see the institution as a true and genuine way to reach the santity.[/quote]
I think you mean sanctity. But again there are saints, e.g., Augustine and Gregory of Nyssa (to name just two), who have held heretical opinions on a number of issues. Canonization / glorification does not give blanket approval to everything said or done by a particular saint.

[quote name='organwerke' date='29 May 2010 - 06:38 AM' timestamp='1275136700' post='2120105']Of course single members can embrace heresy, or the founder himslef could have done mistakes in his life but again you do confusion between the "earthly" reality and the "divine, spiritual" one.[/quote]
Not just individuals, but whole sections of the Church have embraced heresy at various points in history (e.g., the Donatists in North Africa, the Sabellians in Antioch, etc.). The earthly and the heavenly in the Church, as in the incarnate Logos, are distinct but inseparable.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='organwerke' date='29 May 2010 - 06:42 AM' timestamp='1275136922' post='2120106']
Before the Oriental Schism there was only a One Great Church.
Then the Churches divided mostly because of the errors of its isngle members.
If you talk about the earthly reality of the Church, yes, I confirm it can be divided.
But the spiritual Church can't, as the Orthodoxy and the Truth can't be divided in itslef.
[/quote]
As a student of history I am sure you are aware of the fact that there have been multiple schisms throughout history, even during the first millennium, and not merely the great schism in the 11th century. That said, the Churches did not divide because of the errors of "single" individuals, but because of the errors of many people and whole diocese. But I am sure you are aware of the fact that, e.g., the Monophysite heresy had multiple founders (for lack of a better word), men like Eutyches, Dioscorus, Severus, et al., and that it was not a single person who caused that division within the Church.

The spiritual Church and the earthly Church are a single organism. It is Luther who held that there were two separate Churches, i.e., an earthly Church and a spiritual Church, and that only the spiritual Church was the true Church.

Edited May 29, 2010 by Apotheoun

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='organwerke' date='29 May 2010 - 06:42 AM' timestamp='1275136922' post='2120106']
But the spiritual Church can't, as the Orthodoxy and the Truth can't be divided in itslef.
[/quote]
Again, the CDF document [i]Communionis Notio[/i] makes it clear that the Roman Church and the Eastern Orthodox Churches are divided, but it also states that the Eastern Orthodox Churches are true particular Churches which manifest the one Church. Thus, I cannot support your proposition because the CDF itself has said that there can be true Churches that are separated from the Roman and Eastern Catholic Churches.

Edited May 29, 2010 by Apotheoun

[organwerke]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='29 May 2010 - 02:47 PM' timestamp='1275137236' post='2120108']
The spiritual Church and the earthly Church are a single organism. It is Luther who held that there were two separate Churches, i.e., an earthly Church and a spiritual Church, and that only the spiritual Church was the true Church.
[/quote]

Well, first of all I am sorry but I was in the past a student of history...it was really beautiful to study those subjects but finally I couldn't continue those studies because I was already too busy with my musical studies, and now I am a music teacher, so while I am quite sure of the music history I am not so expert -not as you- in Church history.
Anway yes I knew there were also other schisms (I don't remember exactly their names) but I quoted the one that I found the most relevant (in my opinion of course).

Anyway I didn't want to say that there are two divided churches and you are correct saying that the Church as the Logos, is distinct but inseparable; I meant that when single persons or a group of persons , embrace heresy, they are no more in perfect union with the Church.

I guess that we can't define, for example, the Protestant Church (or churches), as the True, Orthodox Church, right?

This is what I meant. I hope I explained myself.

Edited May 29, 2010 by organwerke